Safe refuges for women and children

[Thecatonthemat]

AIBU in thinking that for women getting out of violent and controlling relationships with men should be able to access refuges and hostels that do not have men as workers or residents, including those identifying as women?

YANBU

However some people think that the rights of a small number of XY people who wish to work in such jobs outweigh the rights of XX people and their children to a safe space.

Sadly many of those who hold such views are in positions of authority in government, the law and funding organisations. So they are able to impose their own ideology on the rest of us.

It’s the patriarchy dressed up in woke clothing - XY people always matter more than XX people. XX people should not be allowed anything or any place of their own.

I think it's more important that the staff are properly vetted, background checks and the like. I think that these businesses are exempt from discrimination laws anyway, they are allowed to only hire women because their is an obvious need.

YANBU

I see there is a crowdfunder going on for such a place

just contributed this morning to the crowdfunder.
Seems like the only option to have a place that men cant access. its amazing how fast womens rights have been eroded

YANBU it is so important that women have single sex spaces.

the idea of male workers does not bother me anymore than the idea of a male doctor, a male surgeon...
You wouldn't refuse assistance from a male paramedic or male fireman would you?
You don't reject half the population.

Male identifying as women on the other hand? Sounds so wrong, and so unsafe!

@fashionablefennel

the idea of male workers does not bother me anymore than the idea of a male doctor, a male surgeon... You wouldn't refuse assistance from a male paramedic or male fireman would you? You don't reject half the population.

Male identifying as women on the other hand? Sounds so wrong, and so unsafe!

This makes no sense. If I was in a burning building, obviously I'm going to want the first trained person available to save me The firefighters probably don't have much to do with the people they rescue after the incident, so it's a bit different to a woman, or a woman and her child/children moving into a refuge after suffering abuse from a male and finding a male running the place, having access to their information, having to be around them and interact with them on a regular basis when they are at their most vulnerable.

Also, for many women they do request a female doctor for certain things. Infact I think you can request any doctor you like. You just might have to wait a bit longer.

Why would a male identifying as a woman sound any more wrong or unsafe?

Of course it makes sense.

When a male worker is officially male, you can have rules about male/female - male/female toilets for example, so male workers have their own loo.

When they "identify" as women, then you can't make do that, and that's the problem.

Picture a swimming pool or gym changing room (if that makes my reasoning clearer). You can have female/male changing room (and family ones). There's no point when "identifying" female use the female loo, changing room etc.

Of course refuges should be female only, and they are. The women’s aid federation and VAWG have given evidence to the select committee that shows they well understand the implications and risks of including men. People have to be referred to refuges - there are risk assessments and safeguarding. Some places are self contained flats where a trans woman at risk could be safely housed without issue to other users.

I understand the sentiment of this campaign, but I really worry that this will put women off accessing help because they think there’s a problem and males will be there, and in the UK there really isn’t an issue. We’re not Canada.

@fashionablefennel

Of course it makes sense.

When a male worker is officially male, you can have rules about male/female - male/female toilets for example, so male workers have their own loo.

When they "identify" as women, then you can't make do that, and that's the problem.

Picture a swimming pool or gym changing room (if that makes my reasoning clearer). You can have female/male changing room (and family ones). There's no point when "identifying" female use the female loo, changing room etc.

Ok, I can see how that could be a problem. Something I hadn't thought of, but any male working in a refuge presents a problem surely they don't need to have access to the women's toilets to make women feel uncomfortable or fearful.

@fashionablefennel

the idea of male workers does not bother me anymore than the idea of a male doctor, a male surgeon... You wouldn't refuse assistance from a male paramedic or male fireman would you? You don't reject half the population.

Male identifying as women on the other hand? Sounds so wrong, and so unsafe!

If you are traumatised by treatment from a male then you may well refuse intervention from a man - even if they are trying to help you. I work in teenage mental health and we often need to seek assistance from a psychiatrist outside our team (female) if there has been abuse/trauma, as our consultant is male. You prioritise the needs of the patient/client/service user/whatever, above the needs/rights of the workers

I used to work at a refuge. In the time I was there the only male threat came from the occasional abusive partner who found out where the refuge was and tried to get in. Scary stuff.

All our staff, even the maintenance person, were women. All of the women who took shelter with us were women.

We once had a young woman who we were helping, very shy, very reserved, she had fled an abusive BF who used to let his friends pass her around among other horrible shit.

She was trans. It came up in passing conversation with her and another longer term resident who was gay. I was in disbelief, she looked for all the world like she'd been a woman all her life. Petite, small boned, delicate features.

Op it pains me to think that she would be excluded from where I worked because she was trans, and what would have happened to her.

Op it pains me to think that she would be excluded from where I worked because she was trans, and what would have happened to her.

The thing is you can't make rules that allow some male people if they look sufficiently female but not others who look totally male. You can't make rules based on people's physical appearance. Of course, there should always be refuges available to trans people too but that doesn't mean we should eliminate female-only refuges (largely set up and financed by women for women). Trans people are also welcome to campaign for and set up their own refuges in addition to the ones which are not single sex.

Whilst it might pain you to think if it imagine what every woman there fleeing DV might have felt and had to keep hidden for fear of losing that safe ish space.

Nobody would say that men or transpeople do not deserve safe spaces after DV. But it makes more sense to have separate safe spaces so that everyone can access refuges in need.

We, the group if community charities I work/volunteer with have 2 separate spaces. One is single sex, female, only, staff included. The other has segregated communal spaces that the clients define (usually whenever a transwo/man comes to us) with male and female staff. We access different funding streams for them and there has, so far, been no fuss made.

Having said that the spaces are very small and work very much out of the limelight. I doubt many people living around them know what they are.

@lonel what about people who had their birth cert changed for example? Fairly sure the client I mentioned did, or must have. Can't remember exactly as it was a good few years time ago now.

Whilst it might pain you to think if it imagine what every woman there fleeing DV might have felt and had to keep hidden for fear of losing that safe ish space.

Sorry I don't understand what you mean by this @CuriousaboutSamphire - do you mean the other residents knew she was trans and thought she was a male who would hurt them? In this situation I don't think that was the case.

Sounds like you have a very good system at the charity you work for though, maybe something that could be applied more widely?

Yes, that being a transwoman she would have been born male and may not have had much surgery. Any woman fleeing DV may have been scared or angered by that.

It is something that has to be considered, balanced. Not something that should happen by accident, through lack of communication, transparency.

Apart from anything else someone would have to have considered the boring admin like insurances and funding streams, staying within the 'job description' of the refuge.

Glad to hear that there still are some safe refuge spaces left. When women are referred , how often can they make a choice about which one to go to? We hear that all these resources are oversubscribed and that the women only provision is being reduced by increasing mixed sex services.

@HermioneWeasley

Of course refuges should be female only, and they are. The women’s aid federation and VAWG have given evidence to the select committee that shows they well understand the implications and risks of including men. People have to be referred to refuges - there are risk assessments and safeguarding. Some places are self contained flats where a trans woman at risk could be safely housed without issue to other users.

I understand the sentiment of this campaign, but I really worry that this will put women off accessing help because they think there’s a problem and males will be there, and in the UK there really isn’t an issue. We’re not Canada.

thank you Hermione plenty of us in the sector are well aware of this issue and for reasons discussed elsewhere keep a low profile. However, day to day, whatever organisations may be forced to say in public, to keep their funiing and stay open, the actual refuges are women and children only and the staff are all women.
Please if you need a refuge, don't think they are all full of transwomen, they're not

@fashionablefennel

the idea of male workers does not bother me anymore than the idea of a male doctor, a male surgeon... You wouldn't refuse assistance from a male paramedic or male fireman would you? You don't reject half the population.

Male identifying as women on the other hand? Sounds so wrong, and so unsafe!

Some women who have been attacked, raped, abused by men absolutely WOULD refuse assistance from a male paramedic. Who are we to tell them that it would be wrong of them to do so? Also, a fireman, by nature, is already male.

Women who have experienced trauma at the hands of men absolutely should not be put in a position of having to make it known that they are not happy being dealt with by other men.

@HermioneWeasley @StillWeRise
What about the newly appointed CEO of Rape Crisis in Edinburgh? A person born male, no GRC, no surgery? This person is IN CHARGE!!!

Yes Soontobe60 we are told it never happens...

that is awful, sure, but it's not a refuge

@CuriousaboutSamphire I suppose my experience of this, and our client, was some time before trans people were discussed more widely. Thinking back (must be more than 15 yrs ago!) She must have had her bc changed though because as I mentioned upthread, there were no males allowed on the premises.

I've experienced dv but was lucky not to need to go to a refuge. I know what it's like to fear men. I'm her case I don't know that Id ever be able to view her as a man, but I can see how this would be different of she had presented as very male.