AIBU Mumsnetters are being disingenuous about the need for women to be financially independent

[Waferbiscuit]

MNers regularly stress the importance of being financially independent and any post about SAHMs usually has lots of cautions about being financially reliant on a partner. A recent post about marrying into money had virtually ever poster stating that telling our daughters to marry into money is a horrible idea and that the key thing we should be doing is teaching our daughters to be financially independent.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4234513-to-thin-k-women-still-teach-their-daughters?pg=2&&reverse=1

This is all good in principle, but it feels very disingenuous, almost like virtue signalling, because in reality only a minority of women are financially independent/support themselves financially.

Look at the stats (ONS 2019/2020):
• 29% of women of working age (16-64) are economically inactive! Only 71% are in some form of work. (Of course some of these will be students, but not all)
• Of women with dependent children, only 36% work full time, 37% work part time and the rest don’t work at all. For those working part-time unless you’re on a very high income you wouldn’t be making enough to support your family and will be contributing a lesser amount to the family.
• Anecdotally I’m in my 50s and I’ve seen so many women my age dropping out of the workforce or moving to very limited part-time. They can do this not because they’ve amassed huge savings over their career, but because they have a partner making a lot more money than them.

My question is why do we pretend to value financial independence for women when the majority of women are not. Most women don’t make enough money to support themselves on their own, they rely on someone else’s income to maintain their lives, and the vast majority of women with children wouldn’t be able to raise their family on their income alone.

I sound like I’m being critical but I’m not – this is reality for women: the gender pay gap and time off having children means they make less than men, having children makes it harder to work FT, and we live in an economy where you need two incomes to survive.

So why can’t we just be honest and tell our daughters ‘Yes, it’s good to have a job and an income, but if you want a good lifestyle you need to have a partner working to support you. And if you have children you will probably not make enough money to support your family solo, you will end up being reliant on someone else, so please be aware of the risks.’ Why BS about being financially independent when only a small percentage of women are – or can be?

My POV on this is that I’ve been single most of my life and aside from 7 years with someone, I have had to live and raise children on my one salary. So I do fall into the financial independent category, but it’s been a slog and frankly a lot of women are having a much easier time than me by being financially dependent!

update your information. Financial autonomy is the aim.

‘The reason is because they often take periods out of work whilst others are climbing the career ladder, gaining skills, pension, accrueing leave and pay increases.
Do you really think someone who is a SAHM for 5 years has the same skills starting a new career as someone who has been training in it for 5 years?
Really unrealistic and not prejudice at all !’

No. I never said or implied this. I am saying that someone who has been a SAHM can be as competent as a new graduate. I am not comparing a SAHM with someone who has been at work for the whole time.

How high would someone’s income have to be to be financially independent and bring up two children?

Outside of London, for example? I know it gets ridiculous once you factor in London housing and childcare.

In practice, many women find that when they have children childcare is so expensive that they cannot automatically return to work, and so begins a period where women have career gaps, are forced to work part time, or are in lower paid jobs.

^

So why do we not see more women advocating for free, subsidised nursery? Like in other countries?

It's women who are continually shafted due to the hugely expensive nursery industry in the UK. It's expensive, so women stay at home with the kids, thereby losing their jobs /pensions/workplace seniority/financial independence. But women just seem to say, oh well, hubby can earn the money and I'll be entirely dependant on him? Why so laissez-faire about the whole thing?

So yet AGAIN men have the upper hand!

@LibertyMole

How high would someone’s income have to be to be financially independent and bring up two children?

Outside of London, for example? I know it gets ridiculous once you factor in London housing and childcare.

Surely impossible to answer as everyone's outgoings differ?

I am saying that someone who has been a SAHM can be as competent as a new graduate

^

Yeah, they can. But how to demonstrate it?

You can't equate managing a household budget with managing a company's budget, even though the SAHM might be a financial guru.

@LibertyMole

‘The reason is because they often take periods out of work whilst others are climbing the career ladder, gaining skills, pension, accrueing leave and pay increases. Do you really think someone who is a SAHM for 5 years has the same skills starting a new career as someone who has been training in it for 5 years? Really unrealistic and not prejudice at all !’

No. I never said or implied this. I am saying that someone who has been a SAHM can be as competent as a new graduate. I am not comparing a SAHM with someone who has been at work for the whole time.

Depends how long the SAHM has been out of the workplace and what the role is?

Its a bit of a how long is a piece of string comment.
They might but they might not !
Certainly if you had been out of Nursing/ Midwifery for 5 years then you would need to do a RTP course, you certainly cant jump straight back in and wouldnt be on the NMC register.

@Susannahmoody

I am saying that someone who has been a SAHM can be as competent as a new graduate

^

Yeah, they can. But how to demonstrate it?

You can't equate managing a household budget with managing a company's budget, even though the SAHM might be a financial guru.

Prior work experience? Their qualifications?

Yes, definitely for some roles if you have been out of the role for a long time your skills will be out of date. But for many roles you can go back into the same or a similar role.

Depends on the partner you pick. Men get paid way more - if they work. Shit partner = shift for yourself. Good partner = choices.

As a woman you won't get paid as much as a man, so if you want equality, ironically marriage is the best option. But only to an earning man.

‘So why do we not see more women advocating for free, subsidised nursery? Like in other countries?’

Because many women want to stay at home with their children, or want childcare done by dads or extended family, and don’t think going to nursery benefits children.

@LibertyMole

Yes, definitely for some roles if you have been out of the role for a long time your skills will be out of date. But for many roles you can go back into the same or a similar role.

Absolutely. But no one wants to hear that on MN, it doesn't suit the narrative pushed on here. I tried on a different thread and got told basically as my profession is in demand my experiences basically don't count and once you take a few years out you are doomed. Someone actually used the phrase "career suicide".

‘Surely impossible to answer as everyone's outgoings differ?’

I was thinking more of a ballpark figure for basic independence, not wanting to live in a massive house, go on two holidays a year or whatever.

‘Absolutely. But no one wants to hear that on MN, it doesn't suit the narrative pushed on here. I tried on a different thread and got told basically as my profession is in demand my experiences basically don't count and once you take a few years out you are doomed. Someone actually used the phrase "career suicide".’

It did crush my self esteem reading a lot of the stuff on here. I didn’t apply for any decent jobs for three years because I already felt terrible after DV and then all the posts on here saying you couldn’t get a decent job after being a SAHM. I worked retail for three years because of feeling so bad.

When friends encouraged me to apply for a professional job, I got the first one I applied for. I left the three years in retail off the application.

This is all good in principle, but it feels very disingenuous, almost like virtue signalling, because in reality only a minority of women are financially independent/support themselves financially

Just because many women aren’t financially independent, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be.

Years ago not many women went to university of worked once married. Should we have told our daughters to not bother because no other women did?

@LibertyMole

Yes, definitely for some roles if you have been out of the role for a long time your skills will be out of date. But for many roles you can go back into the same or a similar role.

Fair enough. Not really sure what your point is?

‘Just because many women aren’t financially independent, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be.’

This would require a complete change in the economy, because currently most people, male or female, don’t earn enough to independently raise two or more children.

@LibertyMole

‘Absolutely. But no one wants to hear that on MN, it doesn't suit the narrative pushed on here. I tried on a different thread and got told basically as my profession is in demand my experiences basically don't count and once you take a few years out you are doomed. Someone actually used the phrase "career suicide".’

It did crush my self esteem reading a lot of the stuff on here. I didn’t apply for any decent jobs for three years because I already felt terrible after DV and then all the posts on here saying you couldn’t get a decent job after being a SAHM. I worked retail for three years because of feeling so bad.

When friends encouraged me to apply for a professional job, I got the first one I applied for. I left the three years in retail off the application.

This is exactly why I challenge all this nonsense about how you are unemployable after a short career break. It's damaging to self esteem.

I can relate to what you say. I was so anxious about getting a job in my previous profession after all the stuff I read on here. I got the second job I had an interview for.

Of course there are risks with being a sahm, but there are risks with everything in life. Far too much doom and gloom on here!

Peas, my point is that it isn’t really that much of a career disaster for most SAHMs unless they run up against employers who discriminate against them.

For most roles, there isn’t a reason why a SAHM shouldn’t be as financially stable a few years after entering the workforce as a new graduate is after a few years of working.

It's not impossible at all! It depends on choices, and the current statistical pattern reflects several generations of women not choosing financial independence.

A woman in her twenties today earns as much and more than her male peers. That's because actually woman are equally as capable of getting a good education and earning a good income as a man is. Where it all changes is that women tend to choose to sacrifice their career for their family in their 30s.

Now I think to extent that's unavoidable due to biological realities. BUT there are choices that can be made to limit the damage and enable a woman to better retain her earning potential, and it these choices that mnetters usually strongly recommend a woman consider. For example:

• going part time rather than dropping out of a career path entirely
• using periods out of work to retrain/upskill in preparation for returning to work when children are older
• volunteering in areas to retain skills
• dividing childcare responsibilities more evenly with husbands

The statistics are not really that helpful as they include many women in 50s & 60s who had a poorer working environment. No paid maternity leave to speak of, few options for flexible or home working, and greater gender inequality in the workplace generally. The statistics are different for women currently in their 20s and 30s.

I’m 45, and never once when I was growing up was I given the impression that relying on someone else for my survival or security was an option. I only found out from Mumsnet that anyone in this day and age thinks that. I find it horrifying, frankly. If you’re an adult, you need to have some agency in keeping a roof over your head. And bringing your daughters up to think any different is, imo, severely hobbling them. Not physically the same as foot binding, but emotionally. How can you think so little of them, that you don’t want them to be autonomous independent beings?

@LibertyMole

Peas, my point is that it isn’t really that much of a career disaster for most SAHMs unless they run up against employers who discriminate against them.

For most roles, there isn’t a reason why a SAHM shouldn’t be as financially stable a few years after entering the workforce as a new graduate is after a few years of working.

Why would you be happy to be paid as a new graduate though If you had years of prior experience then surely you would be comparing yourself with women who hadnt left the workforce? Thats where the gap will be? In terms of pay, pension, leave you wont make it up?

‘How can you think so little of them, that you don’t want them to be autonomous independent beings?’

Because I live in the real world where the majority of individuals in the U.K. cannot afford to be a financially independent and have children.

And I think Uber drivers, cleaners and retail sales workers should still have children.

‘Why would you be happy to be paid as a new graduate though confused
If you had years of prior experience then surely you would be comparing yourself with women who hadnt left the workforce?
Thats where the gap will be?
In terms of pay, pension, leave you wont make it up?’

Because I want to do interesting, fulfilling work that matches my aptitude and ability and allows me a decent standard of living and independence as a single person, as well as offering progression opportunities.

I am not comparing myself to people with years of experience I haven’t got because we are not the same.

I just don’t want to be written off as a person not suitable for a career, when I have over twenty years of working ahead, just because someone else is sick of work and wants to retire at 50 because they have already been in work for 30 years.

@LibertyMole

How high would someone’s income have to be to be financially independent and bring up two children?

Outside of London, for example? I know it gets ridiculous once you factor in London housing and childcare.

In London I can tell you the absolute bare minimum - £75K when the children are pre-school, can drop to £65K once both in school. This is without pensions, holidays etc - just covering the basics plus childcare.