AIBU Mumsnetters are being disingenuous about the need for women to be financially independent

[Waferbiscuit]

MNers regularly stress the importance of being financially independent and any post about SAHMs usually has lots of cautions about being financially reliant on a partner. A recent post about marrying into money had virtually ever poster stating that telling our daughters to marry into money is a horrible idea and that the key thing we should be doing is teaching our daughters to be financially independent.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4234513-to-thin-k-women-still-teach-their-daughters?pg=2&&reverse=1

This is all good in principle, but it feels very disingenuous, almost like virtue signalling, because in reality only a minority of women are financially independent/support themselves financially.

Look at the stats (ONS 2019/2020):
• 29% of women of working age (16-64) are economically inactive! Only 71% are in some form of work. (Of course some of these will be students, but not all)
• Of women with dependent children, only 36% work full time, 37% work part time and the rest don’t work at all. For those working part-time unless you’re on a very high income you wouldn’t be making enough to support your family and will be contributing a lesser amount to the family.
• Anecdotally I’m in my 50s and I’ve seen so many women my age dropping out of the workforce or moving to very limited part-time. They can do this not because they’ve amassed huge savings over their career, but because they have a partner making a lot more money than them.

My question is why do we pretend to value financial independence for women when the majority of women are not. Most women don’t make enough money to support themselves on their own, they rely on someone else’s income to maintain their lives, and the vast majority of women with children wouldn’t be able to raise their family on their income alone.

I sound like I’m being critical but I’m not – this is reality for women: the gender pay gap and time off having children means they make less than men, having children makes it harder to work FT, and we live in an economy where you need two incomes to survive.

So why can’t we just be honest and tell our daughters ‘Yes, it’s good to have a job and an income, but if you want a good lifestyle you need to have a partner working to support you. And if you have children you will probably not make enough money to support your family solo, you will end up being reliant on someone else, so please be aware of the risks.’ Why BS about being financially independent when only a small percentage of women are – or can be?

My POV on this is that I’ve been single most of my life and aside from 7 years with someone, I have had to live and raise children on my one salary. So I do fall into the financial independent category, but it’s been a slog and frankly a lot of women are having a much easier time than me by being financially dependent!

I’m not sure I understand the point you’re trying to make

Because lots of women put themselves in a financially vulnerable position and don’t work, we should stop encouraging women to work?

When something is the statistical norm, that doesn’t mean it is the ideal

It’s a bit like saying ‘why do we keep encouraging women to leave men who are domestically abusive when the ONS stats say 1 in 3 women suffer domestic abuse’

If anything, the stats you’ve posted prove why it’s so important we keep impressing on younger women the importance of being financially independent, or they’ll end up in the same dreadful situation of a lot of women older than them

Isn't it the ideal rather than the norm?
Lived experience dictating the advice rather than any ill intention?

Working part time may not make you financially independent as it stands but it gives you more options than being a SAHM if the shit hits the fan. Maybe not even options you like, but there will be options. That's how I interpret the advice.

I don't think it's a problem to tell girls that they will have a better lifestyle with two incomes, that's just common sense. But I order to have that dual income lifestyle they need to be earning some of it!

I understand the point you are making, that it’s not an easy road, but the women giving this advice (I presume, I’m not generally one making that point often) are speaking from experience of how women get shafted when things go wrong. I know from working with abuse victims that financial dependency is often one of the reasons struggle to leave - I think that applies across all the spectrum of abusive behaviour.

So just because many women are not in that independent position, it makes sense for women who care about women to advise others to make those plans. Full disclosure - I am a part time working fairly financially dependent woman - but I believe my relationship to be secure and know I have other ways to become independent should I have to - so I am taking the easy road in a risk assessed way I suppose, to put it coldly!

@GappyValley I agree with you but I feel we ARE being disingenuous saying to women BE FINANCIALLY INDEPENDENT, WORK WORK WORK when it is almost impossible not to rely on someone financially. And many women are having a better quality of life NOT WORKWORKWORKing.

No, it's not disingenuous.

It is good advice. It contributed to my decision to leave my x sooner rather than later thankfully. I needed to be on lone parent benefit so that state pension contributions were made. He deserved it. He wouldn't let me work. He wouldn't do any housework. He wouldn't do any drop offs or picks ups (from a nursery or a creche).

I look back and I didn't plan to end up so cornered. I think if I'd read all of these types of threads before I got married I would have been more turned off him quicker which would have been a good thing.

After leaving my financially abusive x (although he was also emotionally abusive) my financial recovery plan took 9 years.

7 years with him and nine to recover from him.

Mainly the posts about SAHM are about unmarried ones who are leaving themselves financially vulnerable should their relationship break down.

i agree with the PP, your post just highlights why it is so important to be financially independent! We should be encouraging women to work smarter, not harder, from a younger age to be more financially savvy. if I had known the impact of taking maternity leave and then getting cancer so not paying pensions etc for a good few years, I would have done more with my disposable income earlier in my 20's. (i am the higher earner in our family btw, but still have a large gap of not being financially smart that I dread my future).

I believe a certain Serena Joy took your argument and turned it into a book and political philosophy.

So what’s the alternative?
Tell women to marry well and then suck it up when the relationship fails but they are too financially dependent to leave?
No thanks...

Yabu.

I wholly disagree that it's a small percentage that are financially independent.

I work 'part time' but am completely financially independent. I know a considerable amount of women my age, mostly parents, who are financially independent.

I give a different message to my dd I guess. Indirectly and directly. She probably has less fear of being single than I did as I grew up in a two parent family and I think my Mum made me fear it, whereas I've encouraged her to have faith in me, it's all in order, I will be able to pay for everything important and she doesn't worry about me being lonely or sad because I'm a secure in myself content person NOW.

My message to me daughter is don't stick around squaring up for life with a partner who thinks your rights are less than his rights. Get out of there and feather your own smaller nest.

The reason you see so many posts on here about miserable marriages & relationships is because women feel trapped by economics.

Having been that woman I'd caution any woman against financial dependency but also recommend they don't financially support their partner. Same advice I'd give sons. Once children arrive you need to consider how you balance caring for them vs losing independence

I couldn’t survive on just my wage, but the same is true of my dh. In fact I earn more than him. Most households now require two incomes.

I agree that a women who doesn’t have an income of her own is in a vulnerable position, but that isn’t exclusive to women.

My question is why do we pretend to value financial independence for women when the majority of women are not

Because we believe it would be an improvemt.

If it was routinely happening for the vast majority, then no-one would post about it, because there would be no need. There wouldn't be threads about women coping (or more usual struggling) with the after effects of a period during which they became dependent.

We don't want to see future generations making the same mistakes.

If people choose, actively, based on assessment of impact on their independent finances, fine - do what you want.

But I'd really like to see the end of people (usually women) sleepwalking into positions of vulnerability

@Bathsandnaps how do you define financial independence? I'm assuming paying for all living expenses on your own?

Many of my female peers could survive on their own but they are in their 50s on professional salaries. However I don't know if the majority of women can pay for themselves - or if they did their lifestyle would be very poor.

I am financially independent, which is fortunate as my husband lost his part-time job due to Covid, so I'm supporting us both for the time-being. I'm not a high-earner but I have enough to support my modest lifestyle and I'm middle-aged so my mortgage is small.

I am financially independent. I don’t require a partner to have a good quality of life. This seems like yet another thinly veiled “if you can’t get a partner you’re not normal and your life will be crap” post.

Ps, last post! given the statistics which I don't doubt, my advice to my DD would be to have fewer children than I did. I had 2 and it was tough at times, doing on my own. Youngest only 15

I feel you are collating the facts in a very elaborate head in the sand philosophy. The statistics are very depressing and women need to respond to those depressing statistics! Either by leaving marriages, going all out for a better paid job, abandoning all thoughts of a second child, leaving their Husband's laundry undone...... whatever it takes to put themselves first.

I see it now through my work. These men who supported their wives through the baby years will fight hard for their pension and feel robbed if they have to hand over any of their pension. They always always feel robbed to lose their pension. Cos the children are raised now. So they should take their place with the affluent and their xw should take her place with the barely scraping by.

Part of the point I'm trying to make is that actually being financially independent is HARD, it usually means working FT for your whole career, never taking your foot off the gas and it is a slog!

The seduction of financial dependence is having an easier life and I can see why women go down this route instead. So many women my age are having a much much easier time than me working part-time or not at all and they seem very happy! Telling them to WORKWORKWORK didn't work, did it?

But it’s not, as you put it, almost impossible for a woman to be financially independent. Many women already are and those working part time have the potential to be if the shit hits the fan - more than someone who has opted out of the workplace for decades. We should be teaching our daughters that relying on a man to pay for them for life is a risky strategy. For some people it works out fine but many others pay a high price for this blind faith - impoverished old age or staying in an unhappy or abusive marriage.

@Advic3Pl3as3 I promise this post wasn't about the importance of having a partner, as I don't and haven't had a partner for most of my life and I really hate the assumption that everyone is married and/or wants to be!

Well, I am in the 29% of ‘economically inactive’ women and so are four of my close friends. We are all in our mid 50s and have had successful careers and can now afford not to work from our own efforts. Three of us earned more than our partners. Another friend still works but could afford to stop if she wanted to, but enjoys her job. She earns more than her partner. So if you take out women like me and my friends and all the students then the 29% shrinks significantly (the majority of 16-21 year olds nowadays are probably students).
I remember my Mum telling me when I was a young teenager that I needed to marry a man who would give me a good standard of living and replying that I was going to go to university and earn my own money thank you very much. Which I did. I think women my age were some of the first to have the chance (equal pay act etc) to be financially self sufficient and it’s been improving ever since. See this article which quotes another ONS survey www.royallondon.com/media/press-releases/press-releases-2020/may/rise-of-the-female-breadwinner-woman-earns-the-most-in-one-in-four-households/
So I am afraid that YABU. Don’t discourage women from being financially independent by telling them it’s not realistic. Easy no; realistic, increasingly so.

[quote Waferbiscuit]@GappyValley I agree with you but I feel we ARE being disingenuous saying to women BE FINANCIALLY INDEPENDENT, WORK WORK WORK when it is almost impossible not to rely on someone financially. And many women are having a better quality of life NOT WORKWORKWORKing.[/quote]
It’s not almost impossible not to rely on someone financially as a woman

I think this must be a generational divide. I’m in my late 20s and all my female friends are financially independent and still work with children. I, and several of my friends, are higher earners than our husband/partner (and are perfectly happy). Your post doesn’t ring true to me at all. But then as a 50-something woman your experiences will be very different.

I don't know what income bracket you and your peers are in but most women I've worked with in their 50-60s are on average salaries and work until retirement age.

Also, you seem to be missing the point that for most people being in a couple is financially beneficial for both parties. Only high earners could afford to be single and maintain a lifestyle most others have by pooling finances. Look at house prices for a start.