Live lesson - so naughty!

[Cocopogo]

My DD is isolating I just sat in on a lesson and the kids are so naughty and the teacher has no control. She’s just yelling, sit down, be quiet, shhhhh all the way through. How can anyone learn in this madness? Poor teacher and poor DC who want to learn. Joys of bottom set I guess.

My Dd2 did her teacher training, finished her degree, did a years supply finished and went to work in Waitrose temporarily , she couldn't stand it any more . She now has a good job she loves thankfully

It isn’t typical in my experience.

@LolaSmiles

1Morewineplease Parenting and inconsistencies in school leadership.

Permissive parenting combined with wooly, ineffective school leaders creates a perfect storm. The people who suffer are the class teachers and the children who want to learn.

Absolutely.

Covid has made things worse in many schools because children can't mix bubbles, therefore:
-no or limited detentions
-no sending kids out of lessons to reset/ other classes their head of year
-no mid-term removal of kids and placing e.g. a Y7 with a Y11 class who'd tell them where to stick their behaviour.

Add to that that the separation of bubbles also means Y7/8 still feel like the big lads and lasses because Y10/11 have not shown them the pecking order yet, head of departments in secondary school are often not present in Y7-9 classes (usually now teaching Y10 and up) and teachers have note been able to move around class to look at books/ take them in for marking ALL YEAR and you can see why behaviour is the way it is. And then there are the issues with most subjects not being taught in specialist rooms, which takes away a lot of engagement...

But, pandemic aside, yes, behaviour IS getting worse, as is the response to escalating behaviour. The fact that too many exclusions can trigger Ofsted and too much proof for the reason of removal is needed (leading to at least 6 weeks' worth of evidence being collected before anything actually happens - i.e. half a term of misbehaviour), the financial burden any exclusion places on schools, where each managed move costs upwards of £6000 in times where cash-stapped schools really can't afford this and, of course, the lack of money for specialist support, PRUs and special schools and of course you have a perfect storm in the making.

Teachers have no power and no amount of training is going to change that once students are old enough to call the bluff. Especially when those who actively enforce discipline are being penalised ("you've had too many removals this week") and those who let the kids get away with murder bang on about the importance of positive relationships.

Bitter? Me? Noooooo.....

Firstly, teaching some online and some in class is really tough. I've done it in the last 2 terms - I've been teaching almost 30 years and I work in a lovely school. It was really hard work. Having 32 in the class is a breeze in comparison.

Not all state schools are terrible. Mine is lovely. Some private schools are appalling. I know, I have taught in both. I detest the sense of entitlement in some private schools here; the "you can't tell us what to do, our parents pay" mentality sucks.

Some of the issues in the OP are possibly down to poor teaching/classroom management and a lack of SLT support. But teachers now have to deal with kids who a generation ago would not have been in mainstream education. Special schools are full, local authorities cannot afford to send kids to private alternative provision so often these poor kids are floundering along in mainstream, often in the bottom sets, because there is nowhere else for them.

The curriculum since it was "Gove-d" has become ridiculous in terms of the content that has to be covered. Lots of kids (and teachers) don't see the point and kids who are already struggling with motivation, behaviour, different learning needs etc just cannot cope.

What education needs is to be funded properly, the curriculum designed by people who actually know the job rather than some politician trying to make a point, ready access to services which help and support learning needs (more funding there too) and people to step up and actually parent their kids. Until we get that, I can't see things improving.

The people who suffer are the class teachers and the children who want to learn.

And the ‘disruptive’ kids who if managed better would do well

If you're on the same schedule as we are here it's also the last week of a very long 7 week term towards the end of a very long hard year. But yes, much of a teachers time with some groups can be taken up enforcing basic behaviour for learning. We'd definitely prefer to use all of our time for teaching and focusing on those who want to learn but for some school is free babysitting and parenting is something we should do for them.

It isn't typical in my experience, although obviously I do see poor - and some extreme - behaviour, and some poor behaviour management. But I can honestly say that in the three secondaries I go into, pre-Covid all classroom doors are open during lessons and you can walk the corridors and only hear teaching and appropriate responses from almost all rooms. Any misbehaviour is dealt with swiftly following a clear process that escalates to SLT. It is seen as everyone's job to manage.
All comprehensives.
I know online was harder to manage for so many reasons. Trying to enforce the 'cameras on' rule threatened to take all the time in some sessions and getting children to join in effectively was so hard.
Coming back has been so difficult for kids who had mainly opted out of full involvement in lessons and now are being asked to not only re-engage, but catch up too, while not having the usual freedoms between and after lessons.
Both kids and school staff have had and are still having, such a tough time.

@Rosebel

Lockdown can't be blamed for everything. Unless you are saying parents can't control their children and just let the teachers do the parenting (unfortunately some parents do feel like this). Surely behaviour at home should be acceptable and if it is then lockdown will have had no effect on behaviour.

Have you seen the stats on mental health for children during lockdown? Of course it's had a huge impact on children. You can't just take everything away from developing minds and think they'll be fine. And yes some will have a chaotic home life and will have suffered even more. This was an untried experiment and some children have been hugely damaged, which will be reflected in their behaviour.

I assume it's a state school? Unfortunately the description you give is pretty typical. Teachers have no power and the children know it - there is no punishment the teacher can give that the children fear.

I agree.

The pandemic has also had a big impact not just because they’ve been at home and out of their routine but also because the behaviour management that usually happens can’t happen as well.
Eg certain detentions can’t go ahead and being sent to other lessons because of bubbles, being allowed to wear some items of non uniform and coats inside, not mixing with the older years, wearing masks which makes them chatty etc

I've noticed the same with pet dogs. Back in the day, dogs walked to heel and were under control. Now, when I see dogs being walked, they're often like crazy things, jumping all over, pulling and behaving in an erratic manner. They obviously haven't even received basic training on how to walk on a leash.

I think people can't be bothered to exercise discipline over both their pets and kids.

10 years ago, I collected ds2 from his Year 1 class and the classroom was lifting with the noise and chaos. The people in charge were just screaming and shouting at them, it was awful.

Children don't really need to behave now, so they don't. Same with the dogs.

There was also a fad where a behaviour expert touted about his particular take on improving behaviour. It's starting point was the premise that if you have badly behaved children in your class, you as a teacher were responsible for/the cause of that by doing the wrong things. It should be out with rewards, out with consequences. (I'm simplifying a bit, but not too much tbh.)

He made ££££ out of it, and it took off big time for a while until it was actually implemented by staff who generally conceded after a while that, like many theories on behaviour, it worked for some and not others and did no good at all for most children.

its - stupid auto-correct!

I think it very much depends on the school and the teacher. I teach year 1. My class can be silly and they will fall about giggling at the smallest thing. However, they can behave impeccably when required. We've done lessons for several weeks with two kids at home and the others in school. It's hard. Not just for the teacher but also for the kids. They coped very well. They didn't misbehave and they managed to understand that I sometimes had to focus on the laptop and the children at home, instead of focusing on them.
On the other hand, I've also had people tell me they'd rather teach older children because KS1 classrooms are so chaotic and noisy. My class are neither chaotic nor noisy. I have to admit, though, it really depends on the parents. If I have the parents back me up, everything runs so much more smoothly and everyone tends to be much happier.
I had Year 6 last year and had one child constantly watch movies on a second screen while doing online lessons. When he wasn't doing that, he was trying to scribble on the shared screen or mess about in other ways. I usually kicked him out at the third strike because it was disruptive for everyone else. His parents then complained because "he wasn't doing anything". They also did all of the work for him at home and submitted it as his. Needless to say, said child scored very poorly in the assessment when the kids came back (everyone else did really well). According to his parents, it was still my fault because I'm apparently a terrible and uncaring teacher. I still feel that the wellbeing of the majority of my class is more important than supporting the poor parenting and behaviour of one. Even with my younger ones, I will not accept poor behaviour that impacts on the group.

I do think it is mainly parenting to blame.
Our daughter attends a pretty run-of-the-mill school in Germany and her classes are always very well-behaved. Some kids don't have their camera on which is indeed rude, but they are young so nervous possibly, but damn those teachers take no prisoners and the kids have been taught to respect them by the parents presumably. I have sat in on nearly all my daughters classes (while working) and I have been quietly impressed.
Parents need to teach their kids some bloody respect seriously. Teachers have so much to deal with (I don't know how they do it), they shouldn't have to be dealing with basic lack of manners as well. My 5 year old manages this. YANBU OP.

sorry for punctuation typos!

It’s the same all over . If this has happened just before holidays chalk it up to kids being tired and fed up of school.

It’s a high achieving state school so I expected better then again DD has struggled with being ‘easily distracted’ in class. I’ll be interested to have a nosey in a different class tomorrow just to see if it’s one teacher struggling or just generally how that class functions.

Not always the teacher failing as some want to believe - I teach 6 classes and I have an issue with just 1 of them. I have asked for support from head of year to be told its my teaching at fault. Luckily my head of department is more supportive.

Parents are 50:50, those who I have contacted about poor behaviour, all I get is a list of reasons as to why they behave how they do - none of which are really valid reasons lots of excuses and sadly not wanting to parent the student.

I’m a teaching assistant. It’s parenting I’m afraid. So many kids have lazy or disengaged parents, who just haven’t bothered (or managed effectively), to teach them respect for teachers and respect for education. The parents don’t show that they value their child’s education, so unsurprisingly the child doesn’t value it either. It’s depressingly common.

What year group is your DC in?

Covid hasn't helped but I think it's too easy to just blame a lack of parenting, so many contributing factors.

2 dc, 1 at free grammar school 1 at state. The state is f***g horrendous. Absolutely no grasp on behaviour whatsoever, ineffective SLT with crap behaviour policies, reluctant to address's issues in case OFSTED scrutinise behaviour, not daring to address incidents because of gang mentality and repercussions from pupils (eg pretending they don't know who smashed a window / set fire to bins / set off fire alarms even when pupils film themselves doing it and it's on cctv) and shit parenting % closed communities where school is irrelevant, being top player for local football and rugby teams are what really matters.

Plus schools don't want suspensions on record for OFSTED (again ) and don't want financial cost of excluding a pupil permanently due to cost implications of providing education in another facility.

It's crap handling in schools because of OFSTED ratings, manipulating data for them, and havi g no power or authority. Pupils know this and they, and often their parents, don't give a f**k.

I teach in secondary and don’t think it’s parenting alone, I find the quickest way to get a kid to behave in lesson is to say I’ll phone their mom! There’s been a huge shift since I was at secondary 15 years ago in how teenagers are approached. It’s far less strict now, and more of a focus on mental health, which some kids completely manipulate to their advantage. The focus on inclusion, which does have positives, can often mean in lower sets the teacher is stuck dealing with not only students that struggle with learning but also a large number of behavioural issues. When I was at school the kids I teach now with the worst behaviour would have been excluded, so those sets would have been easier.

Part of it is that detentions seem to mean nothing now, and half the time the pastoral staff at my school will remove the detention for absolutely stupid reasons, or move it to a day of the students choosing so it doesn’t interfere with after school activities. There’s so much focus on ‘having a restorative conversation’ rather than discipline. There’s a real issue with inconsistent application of the behavioural policy at my school, which creates a lot of problems. And SLT are ignoring it, telling us how lates to lesson and truancy have decreased recently, well yeah, duh, the kids don’t move classrooms anymore, we do. They’re ignoring that low-level behaviour issues have increased.

That being said, I do like teaching lower sets, it takes a lot of work to build good relationships with the students with very poor behaviour but when you do the change in them does make it worthwhile.

I think part of the issue is a lot of ‘bad’ students have been told for so long that they’re bad that they just continue to act like that.

It isn't typical of all schools-the state secondary I work in, behaviour is good. Yes, you get the odd one but on the whole, kids are well behaved.

That said, we have a very clear consequence system and 99% of parents are supportive of us. That makes a massive difference.

It's also not only 'bottom sets' that have behaviour issues. I teach a Y10 bottom set and they behave beautifully.

It may be that the teacher is struggling- in which case, the senior staff should be supporting her. If they aren't, they are the problem.

It's also worth bearing in mind that it has been a long year of restricted bubbles/less movement around school, rigid seating plans and teacher assessed grades. The kids are getting tired and fed up. Teachers are very tired/stressed with grading.