To think being single should be recognised in law as an unreasonable basis for discrimination?

[OneLovelyDay]

I've just discovered (learning to drive later than others) that apparently it's unreasonable to charge women less for car insurance, but apparently fine to charge single people more than married people.

There's loads of things like this that discriminate against single people, although some not as directly. I'm thinking things like council tax discount, which should be 50% for living alone, not the 25% it is.

More broadly, it's interesting how society has accepted (to some degree) alternative family arrangements but not singleness/childlessness. I could marry and start a family with another woman and it would fit with societies' expectations (and financial incentives) more than being single, or having children alone by sperm donation.

I find being single totally an acceptable thing, don't feel the need for a partner in a day to day sense. But hoping for a family and a ticking biological clock reminds me that it's not my choice to be single. So I don't think it's acceptable for society to discriminate like this. (But also even if someone chooses to be childfree and single that should be respected and treated as legitimate and fulfilled life!)

I was reminded of it particularly harshly in the first lockdown in 2020, when people not living with a family were not supposed to go within two meters of another human, and there was no outcry. It was a real jolt in terms of realising how society views us as different/weird/not normal (thus not entitled to the same basic humane conditions, in that instance).

Fortunately most of my friends are either single or not the joined-at-the-hip with partner type. But sometimes these things crop up and I'm suddenly reminded that my life and needs are not considered as legitimate as those in couples or with children. At the moment this is happening a lot as I'm about to take a drop in income and so going through bills working out where to save money.

I just think it should be illegal to discriminate for things like car insurance based on single status, and more broadly that people should consider this issue and not treat single people differently, in the same way people have started to consider racism, homophobia etc.
AIBU?

the council tax is based on services consumed

It really really isn't.

Councils get most of the money they spend from central government. They can raise additional funds through local taxation. How much they raise depends on what the shortfall is. Eg people in Wandsworth and lots of London boroughs pay fuck all council tax because there's not much of a shortfall between costs and central government input. People in other LAs pay more because there's more of a shortfall.

But across all local authorities, single people pay 50% more than people in couples.

@excuseforfights

In terms of council tax, being a single person doesn’t mean you use 50% less of council provided services than a couple does. The houses of single people aren’t generally half the size of those of couples, your bin isn’t emptied half as often, your car doesn’t do half as much damage to roads etc.

I disagree. Single people are more likely to live in 1 bed flats and they will produce rubbish for 1 person not 2 or more and they will have less people to ferry around.

It isn't about how many services you use. Or families would pay more than childless couples. That you get a discount for being 1 person is something to be grateful for.

In terms of hotel rooms, a couple occupies ONE room, the same as a single person does. If a hotel charged half for single, it would significantly reduce their income.

The reason why car insurance is more expensive if there is only one person on the policy is because you are insuring the car.....a single driver will Drive the car more than if they are part of a couple therefore the risk is not being spread

Council tax is only minimally reduced because for example, if there is a fire they still send the same amount of firefighters to put it out - they don't send less because it is a single occupant household? The bin lorry still has to come round even if it only collects half the number of bags

The lockdown rules were about reducing unnecessary human-to-human interactions. Families who live in the same house can't easily do this.

What does Council Tax pay for?

Local services are funded by Council Tax. This includes:

police and fire services
leisure and recreation projects such as upkeeping parks and sports centres
libraries and education services
rubbish and waste collection and disposal
transport and highway services including street lighting and cleaning, and road maintenance
environmental health and trading standards
administration and record keeping, like marriages, deaths and birth, and local elections.
Council Tax isn’t used to pay for health services.

From here

Although I think there's an element of property pricing?

As for Wandsworth and other boroughs I always thought council tax was lower as a result of a combination of improved management and also the fact that they are more dense areas. So while some costs will go up under those conditions, the entire borough is benefiting from the multiplier effect.?

It isn't about how many services you use.

Exactly! It's not a bill for services. It's a tax. A local tax, but a tax. That taxes single people at a 50% higher rate than couples.

I’ve been in a relationship for five years, married for two. Prior to that I was single, as an adult, for 21 years. I never felt judged for being single, or treated unfairly. Every different status has its pros and cons, I just got on with it.

YABU because for ‘most’ economic things the issue isn’t singleness but being alone. It’s not anybody’s fault if you don’t want to share a house or find someone else to go travelling with.
Work is a different matter - people tend to cut parents more slack... which is unfair

*more slack depending on the company . In others which are less family friendly single people have the advantag
Swings and roundabouts ...

You are confusing being single with living alone. You can be single and live with someone else. Thefore paying full whack on the council tax, still having contact with people in lockdown etc.

I'd also argue that most people don't choose their sexuality, sex, disabilities or ethnicities. Especially not to avoid paying full whack on the car insurance. Your relationship status (either way) is something you have a greater element of choice in.

For most LAs, about 12% of their income for providing those services comes from council tax. The ones that get higher bungs grants from central government use an even smaller proportion of locally collected tax for funding the services. You've already paid for them - we all have - through income/capital gains etc tax that you pass to central government. You're honestly not funding your fire service or whatever with your £170 a month.

So to go through some examples

Mortgage or rent - yes, a single person doesn’t need as big a space as a family, but the difference is often not hugely dramatic. Plus, two deposits.

Electricity, gas, broadband - all these are split down the middle as you don’t tend to use notably more with two, unless one WFH or similar and then your commuting costs are less.

Childcare - obvious one.

Hobbies

Holidays and trips out.

@andivfmakes3

The reason why car insurance is more expensive if there is only one person on the policy is because you are insuring the car.....a single driver will Drive the car more than if they are part of a couple therefore the risk is not being spread

Err...que?

A single driver will drive the car more?

Let me guess, the 57% of people who voted “YABU” are partnered

Nope, I voted YABU because as someone who's grown up non-white in this country, comparing it to racism is incredibly crass, and I'd bet the OP is white to even think this an appropriate comparison .

The council tax things has been explained, 50% property, 50% occupancy, if we based it only on occupancy then people with second homes for investments ect wouldn't pay any on extra property, and then people really would be in uproar. And if you want to complain about who uses the most money from council tax, well that's spent on social care, and given single people are much more likely to need social care (given the number of unpaid carers who are partners/children) then how much the bins get taken is a moot point. And single people in smaller houses already pay less because council tax is done in bands based on the property.

You are assuming that someone has a friend or relative who wants / can afford to go on that particular holiday at that particular time.

This applies to everyone. I don't live with my boyfriend so don't get any of the perks of not being single when it comes to living. And if i want to go on holiday to somewhere he's not interested i have to find a friend/relative to go with me or pay for a room on my own. Having a boyfriend doesn't guarantee we do everything together, we're not joined at the hip, we each have our own interests, he likes walking holidays, i like city breaks, we both go on these separately and will occasionally go on a beach holiday together too.

And yes I agree people living alone were treated shit by the lockdown, but so were many people. I live in a houseshare with people i don't know at all, yes we share a kitchen but have nothing in common, prior to lockdown we didn't socialize, just shared a living space because we couldn't afford to live alone. And then even when bubbles came in because we were technically a household, none of us were still allowed to go and see anyone we cared about. We were all shut up in our rooms sharing a toilet and kitchen with strangers for months on end.

Actually I think from a policy point of view, people should be encouraged not to live in one person households. I realise not everyone has a choice, but single-person households are bad for the housing crisis, bad for the environment, often probably bad for the people concerned. Especially when it's older people living alone in a 3-4 bedroom house.

@Ted27 if your son is in full time education still you should be able to get an exemption certificate stamped by his education provider and still claim the single adult discount. When I was at uni I didn't have to pay council tax because I had an exemption certificate.

www.gov.uk/council-tax/who-has-to-pay hopefully this helps you :)

So what some posters would essentially be arguing for is the return of the poll tax, whereby you are charged council tax per number of occupants. That went down well

@Crowsaregreat

thats a very simplistic view of the housing market and homes

I live in a very modest 3 bed terrace, currently with my son.

I have lived in this house for 20 years. I will not leave here unless forced to because of care needs,
Why - because its my home, my life is here, my friends are here, everything I need is within walking distance.

I have out if curiosity looked at some of the one bed retirement flats in my area. I cannot afford any of them.

@boredbuttercup

Let me guess, the 57% of people who voted “YABU” are partnered

Nope, I voted YABU because as someone who's grown up non-white in this country, comparing it to racism is incredibly crass, and I'd bet the OP is white to even think this an appropriate comparison .

The council tax things has been explained, 50% property, 50% occupancy, if we based it only on occupancy then people with second homes for investments ect wouldn't pay any on extra property, and then people really would be in uproar. And if you want to complain about who uses the most money from council tax, well that's spent on social care, and given single people are much more likely to need social care (given the number of unpaid carers who are partners/children) then how much the bins get taken is a moot point. And single people in smaller houses already pay less because council tax is done in bands based on the property.

You are assuming that someone has a friend or relative who wants / can afford to go on that particular holiday at that particular time.

This applies to everyone. I don't live with my boyfriend so don't get any of the perks of not being single when it comes to living. And if i want to go on holiday to somewhere he's not interested i have to find a friend/relative to go with me or pay for a room on my own. Having a boyfriend doesn't guarantee we do everything together, we're not joined at the hip, we each have our own interests, he likes walking holidays, i like city breaks, we both go on these separately and will occasionally go on a beach holiday together too.

And yes I agree people living alone were treated shit by the lockdown, but so were many people. I live in a houseshare with people i don't know at all, yes we share a kitchen but have nothing in common, prior to lockdown we didn't socialize, just shared a living space because we couldn't afford to live alone. And then even when bubbles came in because we were technically a household, none of us were still allowed to go and see anyone we cared about. We were all shut up in our rooms sharing a toilet and kitchen with strangers for months on end.

You have a boyfriend and you sound v young.

@Bizawit

So what if I am? I have a boyfriend, therefore by OP's definition I am not single. And do people in their 20's opinions not count?

[quote boredbuttercup]@Bizawit

So what if I am? I have a boyfriend, therefore by OP's definition I am not single. And do people in their 20's opinions not count?[/quote]
I just don’t think you’re in a position yet to understand what the OP is going through. You are at a stage in your life when the majority of your peers are in the same situation as you, and you are not facing the same kind of structural life challenges.

Children are an investment in our future society.
Who do you think is going to be caring for you in 30 years time? Fixing your plumbing? Collecting your rubbish?
Somebodies child, that’s who. Children do cost extra -clothes, food, housing etc etc...
And yes, children are a choice but if everyone started choosing not to have them we’d all be a bit stuffed.
Some of the points about single life being more expensive are very valid - the food packaging thing being one of them - but I still can’t see how you can class it as discrimination.

Tbf buttercup I don’t think you are one of the people OP means.

Holidays - well theoretically it’s possible you could holiday with a friend but tbh most people don’t, they do go away as couples or families. I did a bit of independent travelling before I met DH, it was OK but it did cost £££.

People who have not lived as a single adult for a while dont really get it. As for expectations - if you go to a wedding, of course there is an expectation you will give a gift. Similarly when someone has a baby. And it all comes out of one pocket.

If you're in a couple who both work at different workplaces, presumably that's twice as many colleagues and two sides of a family to be having babies to be paid for by the household?

Obviously, it's not an 'official' thing, but I never understand when a lot of couples participating in rounds at the pub, with a group including single people, automatically assume to be counted as one single unit when it comes to paying for a round, but obviously expect two drinks from each round.

I think a lot of things are based on people sharing resources rather than taking more for themselves. Yes, it's unfair if you want to share with a housemate or travel companion but simply can't find one. Council-run park-and-ride schemes will sometimes charge a single price for parking a car rather than for a bus ticket for each passenger from the car, so a family minibus with 9 people in it pay the same as a single person in an Aygo. I can see their basic thinking, but I believe it to be essentially flawed.

As for council tax, there's also the fact that several working adults living together only have to pay the equivalent of a household with two adults. I suppose the argument is that they are better sharing resources, but that's logically only one part of the story. Then again, as a PP said, although 8 working adults in one house don't have to pay extra, they will obviously need a much bigger house than just one couple (or single adult) would - children notwithstanding.

With hotel rooms, a large part of the cost to the establishment is providing, maintaining and paying somebody to clean it - especially the bathroom. Even for double rooms, bathrooms tend to be the smallest size physically possible (assuming only one person to use them at a time), so although the actual sleeping/leisure aspect of the room is smaller, they still have to provide and pay somebody to clean one room, one toilet, one sink, one bath/shower etc., however many occupants there are sharing it. That said, I think prices should be quoted per room - whether single, double, family - rather than per person, assuming two adults, and then punishing single people for failing to be one of two adults sharing a room.

I don’t think it’s discrimination as such but I don’t think the OP is unreasonable to have a whinge about it m!