To think being single should be recognised in law as an unreasonable basis for discrimination?

[OneLovelyDay]

I've just discovered (learning to drive later than others) that apparently it's unreasonable to charge women less for car insurance, but apparently fine to charge single people more than married people.

There's loads of things like this that discriminate against single people, although some not as directly. I'm thinking things like council tax discount, which should be 50% for living alone, not the 25% it is.

More broadly, it's interesting how society has accepted (to some degree) alternative family arrangements but not singleness/childlessness. I could marry and start a family with another woman and it would fit with societies' expectations (and financial incentives) more than being single, or having children alone by sperm donation.

I find being single totally an acceptable thing, don't feel the need for a partner in a day to day sense. But hoping for a family and a ticking biological clock reminds me that it's not my choice to be single. So I don't think it's acceptable for society to discriminate like this. (But also even if someone chooses to be childfree and single that should be respected and treated as legitimate and fulfilled life!)

I was reminded of it particularly harshly in the first lockdown in 2020, when people not living with a family were not supposed to go within two meters of another human, and there was no outcry. It was a real jolt in terms of realising how society views us as different/weird/not normal (thus not entitled to the same basic humane conditions, in that instance).

Fortunately most of my friends are either single or not the joined-at-the-hip with partner type. But sometimes these things crop up and I'm suddenly reminded that my life and needs are not considered as legitimate as those in couples or with children. At the moment this is happening a lot as I'm about to take a drop in income and so going through bills working out where to save money.

I just think it should be illegal to discriminate for things like car insurance based on single status, and more broadly that people should consider this issue and not treat single people differently, in the same way people have started to consider racism, homophobia etc.
AIBU?

@SchrodingersImmigrant

All childfree and childless people should create a union or something, because single or married, if you don't have a child, you are fucked if you wnat Christmas off. Or summer time off. Or anything really!

I went to my union after the 50% top up policy was introduced for parents only and they said they understood the impact but that they had lobbied to introduce the policy as the majority of their members were parents and would benefit it.

After that, I did question why I was paying to be a member...

@trixies shameful

I'm not sure single parenthood should be regulated in law but I really would like to see more places accommodating for single parents.

For example, I'm taking my 2 kids to a theme park over the half term. Family tickets are 2 adult and then either 1 child, 2 children or 3 children. No 1 adult, various children type ticket deals. SOME places do do this - and (on principle if nothing else) I always buy from those accommodating places.

Holidays are a bastard too if you're a single parent. You usually pay the same as you would for a hotel if you're in a couple.

Being single is a choice though

If you want shared expenses you need to share your space. Get a lodger or a flatshare, share with a friend/family member.

Single room supplement is fair. Lots of hotels will do it per room so no supplement. So.e holidays will do a single person supplement if they a pp, rather than per room. Fair enough as you're getting a whole room. Or again you can find friend to share with if you want to pay for half a room

Council tax you use more than 50% of services, plus as above you can share your space if you want to share your bills.

It can be more expensive being single yes, but thats not discrimination. Its not like being black or disabled.

Being in a couple is the choice
Being single is the default.
But the problem is that because so many people choose to be in a couple it's seen as the default.
But it is the choice more often.

OrangeSharked

do you really believe what you have just posted?
Taking in a lodger or flatmate doesn't make you less single, also try it in a one bed flat.

The single room supplement is BS, I am either paying for a room or I am paying by the number of beds. And as I pointed out upthread, if you bring some one back to your room you get charged a guest fee.

And no being single isn't like being black or disabled.

@GucciJackie

Being in a couple is the choice Being single is the default. But the problem is that because so many people choose to be in a couple it's seen as the default. But it is the choice more often.

If you can choose your way in or out of it then it doesn't matter which is default and which isn't. It's not comparable to racism or homophobia as OP claimed. It's not discrimination.

Not having someone to split the bills/council tax with because you don't want to share your space with someone isn't discrimination. Plenty of not single people choose to live alone because they don't want to share, same as choosing not to take a lodger in.

@OrangeSharked

Being single is not always a choice

but can you please explain to me how getting a lodger would make me any less single

If you can choose your way in or out of it then it doesn't matter which is default and which isn't. It's not comparable to racism or homophobia as OP claimed. It's not discrimination.

Based on this reasoning, you can abolish tax for married people - after all it's everyone else's choice if you choose to stay single / unmarried.

@FrippEnos well no it doesn't make you less single but it does half your council tax/bills which is the discrimination that is being talked about on this thread.

If you moved in with a friend, you could go for a two bed which is normally cheaper per person than a one bed and lower council tax per person. Generally a one bed is quite a small space for a couple anyway, you still need more space as a couple than a single person - you aren't the same person.

Of course you are welcome to make the choice to stay in a one bed by yourself, and its what I would do (and did do) when I was single, but that is a choice you have made, there are options.

When I lived alone I always got in the bathroom when I wanted, I had 100% of the cupboard space, I had 100% of the sofa etc. I had more space as a single person than I do now, so I payed more per person. If I wanted similar space as a couple to what I had as a single person it would cost roughly the same. I am still sharing my space

There are plenty of hotels that charge per room, as I said. So go to those not hotels that ones charge a single person supplement.

@GucciJackie

Being in a couple is the choice Being single is the default. But the problem is that because so many people choose to be in a couple it's seen as the default. But it is the choice more often.

This is so well put.

@ted27 living alone is a choice I guess is what I mean (and therefore the single person discrimination being spoken about)

@OrangeSharked
Have you not read the thread and the tax discrepancies discussed?
Also, I am laughing at the idea of all these single parents who are going to squash up a bit and get a roommate too.

Gingerbread are campaigning for fairer family price tickets to attractions and cultural events. It’s apparently backed by several MPs and other charities.

@OrangeSharked

but what if I live in a one bedroomed flat?

@Ted27 nobody’s forcing you to live in a one bed flat. If you can’t afford it then move into a 2 bed with someone else.
Whether council tax is fair is another story but it’s not a bill of services received for things like bin collection. It’s for things like adult social care as well which nobody knows whether they’ll need.
I say this as someone whose highest expense every month was the council tax when single not too long ago. I disagree with the way it’s calculated and consider it highly regressive but to say ‘I’m single so create less rubbish’ misses the point.

@TheLastLotus

as it happens I live in a 3 bed house. I do not need lodgers to afford it.

But some people on this thread think I am over occupying and people should be discouraged from what they consider to be over occupation.

I don’t think I’ve seen any single person on this thread complain about their housing costs. I can afford my house and I’m going to live in it all by myself, well I will when my son leaves home.

Housing wasn’t the issue this thread was started about.

But it seems single people can’t win on this, all I see is a constant push towards single people living in cupboards or sharing with other random people. In other words I should take up as little space as possible and leave the nice houses with gardens to the nice couples

I’m single and live alone mainly because I’m autistic. It’s not really a choice. I know I’ll never be in a relationship because a) I couldn’t cope with it and b) no man in the world would ever take me on as a partner anyway. I can’t live with other people because I am so rigid and routine driven. It would end up being detrimental to both me and the person I was living with. University and house sharing was one of the worst experiences of my life.

Sometimes I’m very envious of those autistic women on here who have a husband or long term partner. I have literally no idea how they have achieved that.

@Ted27 so complaints over how council tax is too high isn't a complaint about housing costs?
If housing is a scarce resource then it makes sense to ration it by making living alone expensive. Now the logic is sound but if and only if the underpinning assumptions are true (i.e. there is indeed a scarcity of houses, prices aren't artificially propped up). I don't know if this is true for general housing. But it holds for council housing. If you are given a 3 bed on the basis of having a family then yes, once you are living alone you should be moved to a smaller unit. Even here the logic isn't COUPLES, it's a FAMILY. A single parent with 4 kids and a couple with 2 would be the same (in fact single parent probably is higher priority).

Nobody is saying that people can't take up space but they have to be able to afford it. You can't want your own flat (a luxury, bar certain circumstances) and moan about having to pay for it.

**But some people on this thread think I am over occupying and people should be discouraged from what they consider to be over occupation.
**
I don’t think I’ve seen any single person on this thread complain about their housing costs. I can afford my house and I’m going to live in it all by myself, well I will when my son leaves home.

Housing wasn’t the issue this thread was started about

I mean technically you are overoccupying. And in a country with a housing crisis something does need to be done about people overoccupying. But that's not a problem with single people, it's a problem with anyone in a house bigger than necessary and even more so second home owners (especially those who leave them empty). That's kind of irrelevant to this thread though, it's an everyone should take up no more space than necessary thing.

But many many people on this thread, including the OP, have complained about council tax, which is a housing associated cost. And some posters have even complained about not having anyone to split the rent/mortgage/bills with. And those are the people being told to take in a lodger - If they want someone to share the costs with as that's a simple way to do it. And it's also been pointed out that many non single people still choose to live alone due to not wanting to live with their partners (the same as single people not wanting to live with housemates) so it's not a 'being single' issue, it's an ' unwilling to live with someone else issue'.

I don't think single people should hide away in cupboards. But I think if you're going to complain about something and attribute an incorrect reason to that something, I'm going to point out that the reason you've come up with isn't actually the cause of the problem, and point out other ways you can tackle the problem. The exact same way I myself have dealt with it in this case - by living with other people to share council tax/rent/bills.

It doesn't have to be equated to homophobia or racism. Gay people might be even more likely to be long term single (not sure about that) but the point is surely the disadvantage all the more felt because it's never acknowledged. You're just supposed to get on with it financially.
And socially, well, it's like ''Please respect our right to pity you and decide that your standards are too high''.

Also to add - the original post reads like a rant from the OP because she hates being single. She lists several things, some of which are unfair (more expensive insurance) and some which aren't really(council tax).

The truth is society is geared for community. This doesn't necessarily relate to couples, but in a world where almost everyone seems to have a dysfunctional family/people move far away from family coupledom is the default bond which carries obligation.

For me the true issue with being single is that nobody looks out for you. Every issue is primarily yours to deal with. Some people manage to find good friends whom they have strong bonds with but otherwise it's just you against the world, and friends are people whom you talk to and can have fun with but that's about it. Also they leave, or have other obligations, and then you're forgotten.

I spent long nights thinking about all this sort of thing ... as I was single for a good part of Covid (and before that)...

@OrangeSharked you should really read the thread more thoroughly, all your points have been argued against multiple times

"In other words I should take up as little space as possible and leave the nice houses with gardens to the nice couples" this is exactly the attitude that irritates and exasperates us.

"If housing is a scarce resource" - but this is a false construct. Housing is scarce NOT because it has to be but because property developers and landlords etc WANT it that way to keep the prices artificially high. Many MP's - of all parties - are in positions where they are benefitting financially directly from high housing prices and a lack of habitable stock and they vote on this accordingly, look at how MP's vote on housing, tenants rights etc and you will notice that those with a vested interest in maintaining high housing prices almost always vote in ways that mean that the current status is maintained or even worsened. There are literally hundreds of thousands of empty housing places in the uk that are allowed to remain empty for exactly this reason. Developers aren't properly held to account in providing affordable housing nor ensuring the correct infrastructure is in place and they're certainly not even encouraged let alone made to create and provide single person dwellings. IF this happened prices would lower. The main driver of poverty and hardship in this country is these artificially high housing costs. Govt frames house ownership as an investment not as they should be which is as homes. We have huge homelessness rates which are worsening and this includes children and otherwise vulnerable people like the mentally ill, those with learning disabilities and care leavers, yet there is no political will within any of the major parties to properly tackle this.

@TheLastLotus
I agree its hard being alone during cv too, I've been worried about this as I live alone, only see the Tesco driver in person from one week to the next and I am also disabled and asthmatic. I have telephone therapy sessions approx fortnightly, dd is away studying and living independently 100's of miles away now, parents are elderly and infirm themselves and only mum is barely mobile but she can't manage my stairs. Close friends are 100's if not 1000's of miles away due to a mix of emigration decisions and that I am no longer living where I grew up/went to school having moved away due to marrying ex who was army and I can't afford to move back there as its an expensive area and I don't qualify for social housing there as no "official connection" to the area...

It makes me feel very vulnerable, if I were to fall ill...or just fall! I'd be scunnered basically! I actually walk around the flat with my mobile on me at all times just in case!

I don't like to worry others with this vulnerability but my mum is very aware and tries to check in fairly regularly at least by text but others don't have the same awareness as most people my age are still relatively fit and self sufficient and I must admit I am partly the victim of my own determination not to rely on others - because frankly my personal history is that every time I have dared to rely on others they've let me down and that v much includes my parents unfortunately.

Life has taught me others cannot be depended on. Not even professionals.

It can be quite scary.

I could not cope living with most other adults due to the needs I have due to multiple health issues...yet I don't quite qualify for supported housing yet and even if I did again there's very little available.

I've worked in residential care and being brutally honest I would love to live in a similar slightly less dependent setup and I am only 48. A double room of my own, with an en suite shower/wet room (my mobility is declining), meals made for me (I struggle some days with making meals safely), someone reminding me to take meds (memory affected by both health and ironically the meds), and keeping an eye on me, company of other residents when I chose would be perfect...

Anyone seen that thing on facebook about the pensioner who is constantly on cruises rather than live in poor elderly care? I can totally relate to that. Or the older wealthy people that choose to live in hotels. Makes total sense to me now, when I was younger and fitter it seemed not as appealing but now... I can definitely see the attraction.

I didn't really choose to be single, life threw a curveball and I've had to make the best of it, but it hasn't and isn't easy especially when our society is set up to make things easier for couples.

@Ted27 No one has said you should take up as little space as possible. Thats total bs and you know it. You are welcome to take up as much space as you like and can afford

What they have said is you have options. If you want to live in a 3 bed house thats fine but you can't then say single people are discriminated against because their housing costs are higher when you chose to live in a 3 bed house for one person. Equally couples chose to move in together because its cheaper, that too is a choic, some couples chose to live seperately. Repeatedly people have moaned about council tax as a single person, but there are options if you do not like paying the full (or75%) council tax on your property. The problem is one adult per property not the relationship status

You are welcome to spend your money as you like, but no one is forcing single people to live alone in 3 bed houses.

Some people will find being single a bit shit, some people prefer to be single, but that doesn't equal discrimination.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

All childfree and childless people should create a union or something, because single or married, if you don't have a child, you are fucked if you wnat Christmas off. Or summer time off. Or anything really!

I don't mind working on Christmas. The problem being childless is if you get ill and then have to stay with a very violent partner because councils won't house childless or if they do it can be shared accommodation including with violent criminals just released from prison. I think maybe sometimes things like no safe housing for childless can be disability discrimination when it's infertility and no childless by choice.