Affairs

[xXOXOx]

See so many people on here having affairs with men that they know are married and in long term relationships with children etc. It makes me so sad! My DF had affairs when I was younger and it really affected me growing up and I actually think it still does. I can't quite understand how people can do this to other females or their partners and not think about the poor women and children they are affecting would they like it done to them? NOPE. I think it's utterly selfish and so disrespectful, not only to themselves but everyone else involved!

The nature of the betrayal & pain each party inflicts is a totally different matter to whether both hold personal responsibility for their actions. I'm saying both are responsible but concede the nature of the that betrayal differs between the 2 parties. I'd hold both parties responsible, but be more hurt by the husband.

FWIW I don't feel that women who engage in affairs have a lack of self respect, rather a self-righteous attitude coupled with an over inflated entitlement i.e. I can have whatever I want, whatever the cost. I struggle to see much difference in the root of this attitude to that of the husband, a father, who screws some woman just because he can she's up for it, and he wants to. Both act in the full knowledge of the consequences of their actions.. to suggest one party owes the injured parties nothing and is therefore beyond reproach only betrays precisely the level of entitlement and disregard for others that I'm getting at.

Women have just as much responsibility for their choices, actions and words as men do - to hold them to a lesser standard than men is inherently sexist.

My mum was the one who had the affair on my dad and it was with a married man, a dad from my primary school to make it worse. I hated her more for what she did and I hated the guy for moving into my house and removing any scrap of my dads existence from the house

@DrSbaitso

Again,bothparties are equally complicit in the choice to engage in infidelity

Again, only one of them ever made the choice to commit to someone else and only one of them is responsible for their commitment. The other person cannot possibly be equally to blame for a promise they didn't make. The world is not the safeguard of your husband's fidelity. He is.

If you found out your husband had been propositioning women and the only reason he hadn't actually shagged any was because they had all said no, would you feel OK about it? Safe in his commitment?

No, I wouldn't. But you're talking about something completely different here to what OP stated - she is talking about affairs, not propositioning..

An affair requires 2 parties to consent and participate. Propositioning is a one-way street with only one party responsible unless the other accepts that offer. It is not just married men who proposition...

@DrSbaitso

Your posts are really well-articulated and highlight so much of the misogynistic thinking prevalent on this topic. Even the wording of the op- “females” used interchangeably with “women”. There’s always an excuse for the man’s behaviour (note, man’s not male’s) but not the woman’s, unless it’s the faux-pitying but actually scornful “she must have low self-esteem”.

she is talking aboutaffairs, not propositioning..

So if her dad had propositioned women and they'd all said no, that would be OK?

What matters is the intention to cheat. That's the betrayal. Whether you find someone else who's willing to make it worth your while is beside the point. You're prepared to throw your family under a bus. And that will always make you way worse to them than the person who didn't know them or have any duty towards them. It may be exacerbated by a love child or some such, but ultimately it's still your partner's decision to cheat that caused the damage. The other person could shag anyone in the world, it's nothing to you unless your partner chooses to go there. How safe can the marriage be if it relies not on your partner's commitment but the decisions of a load of strangers?

Thank you, @sammylady37. I'm certainly not condoning affairs or saying it's ok to sleep with married people. Of course it's dishonourable and you shouldn't do it. But I absolutely reject, in strong terms, the idea that as a woman I am collectively responsible on an equal level for every married man's commitment. It's not as if the narrative around affairs is particularly egalitarian in any other way.

I know it's hard to look honestly at the true terms in which we judge adulterous men vs adulterous women, because we all like to think we haven't been affected by our sexist environment. But we need to. That's how I came to rethink my own view on this...

So if her dad had propositioned women and they'd all said no, that would be OK?

No it wouldn't be in my mind, however that isn't the topic OP raised.

I agree intent matters - however I disagree with your view that only one party is cheating. Both parties know they are cheating.

Perhaps the difference is that I value family, and I'm not willing to be complicit in throwing someone else's family under the bus.. if I engage in that, it's on me - I don't get to blame the married man for my choice to screw him when I know that what I am doing is causing causing pain to his wife, his children. I can only be responsible for what I choose to do - I am however not responsible for what anyone else does (including married men, their commitment is their domain).

Taking personal responsibility for one's actions doesn't change the responsibility of a husband / father towards his family - in the context of an affair he chooses to throw his own family under the bus but the other woman is evidently happy to come along for the ride.

If you decide to rob the bank you work for, and I go with you and participate in that robbery - I am equally responsible for robbing that bank.. I may get a lesser prison term as I didn't ''mastermind' the crime, but I choose to participate in, aid it, enable it.. I am not innocent just because it wasn't my idea or my employer.

We all have different values and morals.

I think most men would cheat if the opportunity arose. I know one woman , who posts on MN sometimes, whose husband has been having an affair with a young woman in his company and has been going on for two years. She knows he is married with kids. There are probably loads of people having affairs and their partners are unaware.

@Pinkyxx

Again, both parties are equally complicit in the choice to engage in infidelity and equally responsible for the consequences of their choices. I call complete BS on the notion that only the person who is committed is in the wrong. It's ok to betray, cheat and deceive as long as you weren't committed to the person wronged? Give me a break.

This isn't about sexism, it's about basic morals and values. To imply that either party could be faultless in the context of infidelity betrays a tragic sense of entitlement, a belief one can behave as one wishes regardless of how those choices might impact another. What a sad world we live in if truly people are so blind, so impervious to the impact they have on others. I would never knowingly act in a way that hurts someone else - and it ought to be obvious to any adult that having an affair with a married person is liable to cause pain.

It only causes pain if the man cheats instead of leaving the relationship. The OW has no control over whether the man will be honest/truthful.

It's not obvious that it will cause pain - these men often lie about their relationships. The OW's relationship with the man is her own business. The wife's and husband's relationship is their business. People are not property, all parties involved are free to do as they please.

The man should leave the relationship/be truthful, the wife should leave if she knows about the affair and doesn't want to be in a disloyal relationship. Everyone has a choice in this situation.

I agree with those saying it is the responsibility of the person in the relationship to be faithful although I can totally understand the anger at the OW when you're personally in that situation.

I had an affair with a married man when I was 19. Not that it excuses it but it was a very strange situation where they had met on the internet, lived in different countries and hasn't seen each other for a year and a half. I'm not proud of what I did but | was a dumb teenager and I actually ended up doing her a massive favour as it wasn't the first time he'd cheated (she was unaware) and she's now married to someone who seems to respect her and they have children. Sorry getting a bit off track here - what I was going to say is I'm in my 30s now and I would never go near anybody else's partner.

@Pinkyxx

So if her dad had propositioned women and they'd all said no, that would be OK?

No it wouldn't be in my mind, however that isn't the topic OP raised.

I agree intent matters - however I disagree with your view that only one party is cheating. Both parties know they are cheating.

Perhaps the difference is that I value family, and I'm not willing to be complicit in throwing someone else's family under the bus.. if I engage in that, it's on me - I don't get to blame the married man for my choice to screw him when I know that what I am doing is causing causing pain to his wife, his children. I can only be responsible for what I choose to do - I am however not responsible for what anyone else does (including married men, their commitment is their domain).

Taking personal responsibility for one's actions doesn't change the responsibility of a husband / father towards his family - in the context of an affair he chooses to throw his own family under the bus but the other woman is evidently happy to come along for the ride.

If you decide to rob the bank you work for, and I go with you and participate in that robbery - I am equally responsible for robbing that bank.. I may get a lesser prison term as I didn't ''mastermind' the crime, but I choose to participate in, aid it, enable it.. I am not innocent just because it wasn't my idea or my employer.

We all have different values and morals.

No, both parties do not know they are cheating. You cannot cheat on someone to whom you haven't made a commitment. You cannot break a contract you didn't make.

It doesn't matter whether you blame the married man or not for your decision to shag him. What's to blame in that? Your shagging him isn't inherently wrong. What's wrong is him doing the shagging when he's supposed to be committed to his family. That's the wrongdoing. Your valuing of family isn't the issue if you aren't committed to one. His is.

Bank robbery is a false equivalence. We are all bound by the law not to rob banks. We are not all bound to personal sexual promises that other people make to other people. A better analogy is the bank employee who signs a contract to say he won't take anyone into the vault, then takes someone into the vault. Then the bank manager declaring they're both equally to blame for breaking that contract that only the employee signed. They're patently not.

If I shag your husband, I've done wrong but I haven't been unfaithful to you or failed a duty to your family. You keep saying words to the effecf of "he couldn't do it if she didn't" when actually it should be "she couldn't do it if HE didn't".

Or to elaborate on the bank employee analogy: so he signs the contract agreeing not to take anyone into the vault, but the manager discovers he's been inviting people into it. Nobody has accepted, but he's making the invitations. Is that OK? Can the bank manager trust him? Is she right to hold everyone he approaches equally responsible for his contract?

An awful lot of people have no integrity and are incredibly selfish, that shouldn't come as a surprise.

My father had an affair when I was in my early teens, with a woman only 10 years older than me. I can still recall the utter contempt I felt for him at the time. I couldn't bear for either of my DDs to ever feel that way about me, so having an affair is simply never going to be an option for me. Ever.

I totally get that people fall out of love, and there are people in unhappy marriages and they absolutely shouldn't suffer in silence, and they should leave. But think very carefully about how you leave. No one wakes up one morning to find themselves in the middle of having an affair. You took every single baby step towards your affair, knowing exactly what you were walking towards.

You don't exist in a vacuum. If your affair impacts in anyway negatively on your family & friends ( and it absolutely will) then you've fucked up and failed. If your affair causes your children one moment of fear, anxiety, stress or upset then you have fucked up and failed.

@Blossomtoes

There are a lot of people looking for a bunfight tonight.

Come here and say that!

No, both parties do not know they are cheating. You cannot cheat on someone to whom you haven't made a commitment. You cannot break a contract you didn't make.

Let's distinguish between cheating on someone and infidelity. I am talking about infidelity, which I maintain is act that requires 2 willing participants. If you want to define cheating as the violation of a 'contract' between 2 spouses, OK - for me infidelity is the act of betraying another person sexually, I don't really care about the small print and honestly find the argument around who is in a contract with whom a bit pedantic - I'm talking from a moral point of view.

It doesn't matter whether you blame the married man or not for your decision to shag him. What's to blame in that? Your shagging him isn't inherently wrong. What's wrong is him doing the shagging when he's supposed to be committed to his family. That's the wrongdoing. Your valuing of family isn't the issue if you aren't committed to one. His is.

Again, the 'crime' committed by each party may differ but both still committed a crime..

Bank robbery is a false equivalence. We are all bound by the law not to rob banks. We are not all bound to personal sexual promises that other people make to other people. A better analogy is the bank employee who signs a contract to say he won't take anyone into the vault, then takes someone into the vault. Then the bank manager declaring they're both equally to blame for breaking that contract that only the employee signed. They're patently not.

I respect your opinion, but again, I choose to see it differently through the lens of my own morals and values and not a contractual transaction... I respect the sanctity of marriage & value family, therefore as an outsider to that ''contract'' I still would not act in a way that jeopardizes anyone's ''contract'' in that regard. I would not undermine anyone's family. I don't want blood on my hands as I could not live with myself. Again, others may feel differently.

If I shag your husband, I've done wrong but I haven't been unfaithful to you or failed a duty to your family. You keep saying words to the effecf of "he couldn't do it if she didn't" when actually it should be "she couldn't do it if HE didn't".

I said those engaging in infidelity are equally responsible for the pain and suffering their choices cause. I disagree that the woman causes no pain in your example, as it's disingenuous to suggest an adult in full possession of their faculties does not know that infidelity will cause pain to those who are being betrayed (regardless of contract). I also didn't say ''he couldn't do it if she didn't'' - I said they both choose to. You don't trip into an affair, you actively choose to engage in it.

I choose to act with integrity and consideration for other people - whether I entered a ''contract'' with them or not. It's basic humanity to me.. I won't be complicit in causing someone else pain. I don't look for excuses to absolve myself of responsibility. Everyone has to decide for themselves what their values are. Engaging in an affair is a conscious choice on the part of both parties, so to me they both bear equal responsibility.

I am talking about infidelity, which I maintain is act that requires 2 willing participants...for me infidelity is the act of betraying another person sexually

I honestly don't understand how seeking out other women, even if they all say no, wouldn't be infidelity under your very definition here. You don't need a second person to betray someone sexually.

I choose to see it differently through the lens of my own morals and values and not a contractual transaction... Irespectthe sanctity of marriage & value family, therefore as an outsider to that ''contract'' I still would not act in a way that jeopardizes anyone's ''contract'' in that regard. I would not undermine anyone's family.

Marriage is a contract. That's literally what it is, as we are always telling those unmarried SAHMs on here who insist they don't need it.

But even if we look at the more romantic side of the relationship and family itself, once again, though, it doesn't matter what you do. It matters what the committed person does. It's all very well saying you would never enter the vault because you respect its sanctity, and that's very nice. But you don't have the keys, so you couldn't get in without his co-operation even if you wanted to. Even if you threw yourself against the door. The sanctity of the vault rests on one thing: the employee's dedication to his word and guardianship of his keys. If he offered the keys to a load of people who all said no, do you think the bank manager should keep him on, since he failed to actually take anyone down there? Can he be trusted? Has he done his job?

I said those engaging in infidelity are equally responsible for the pain and suffering their choices cause

Well, there's the crux we disagree on, I guess. Given that the only choice with any actual power is the one belonging to the actual guardian of the vault, and that I'd consider him unfit for the job if he was offering people the keys whether or not they said yes, I'm going to disagree.

If we are going to look through it with the lens of our own morals, then personally I could never say that the person who made the promise, who formed the bond, who gained the trust, who chose to have the children, who shares the life, who takes the responsibility, is "equally responsible" to the person who had no connection with any of that. To dilute the spouse's responsibility like that, to make their wrongdoing no worse than the person who had none of that trust and connection, actually sits very very badly with me.

In a bit of a rut, I have a loving partner nearly 10 years 4 kids but he had an affair 2 years ago, no sex but it was more then sex, there was something lacking from out relationship and he was searching for that something, I feel so betrayed as he is my soul mate as I had thought but he was searching and found what I obviously wasn't giving him. It wasn't sex.. apparently... a kiss 2 weeks of texts and went back for another kiss then they decided to end, I maybe could have dealt better with a one night fling but the fact that I wasn't given him what he needed has been destroying me inside out, and I don't know jow to let that go, we have tried to talk, and believe me at the beginning he was so sorry but I've never had real answers and as a person it has ruined me, I trusted him with every ounce! Ans we had our differences but we were sould mates but it was all bull shit to me anyway, I am a mear person, a fraction frail being that I was and I don't know how to forgive and forget, I want to, but I am different, I don't trust him even though I so try, I'm ruining and chance of the future or is my gut telling me different.. God I need some help directing me, is guy always right, or am I scared to feel that immense pain caused by someone I had given my ultimate trust in. I love him we have 4 kids together but something is saying something isn't right

The married person is lying, cheating scum.

The person who shags the married person is just scum.

That's my take on it!