To think that if the hospitality industry is struggling to fill vacancies...

[Susie477]

It should pay higher wages?

The hospitality industry is facing a ‘jobs crisis’, we are told. Restaurants are complaining that they can’t recruit the workers they need to re-open after lockdown. Many of the foreign workers they previously relied on have gone home after Brexit & covid, and they are struggling to recruit British workers to do minimum wage jobs with unsocial working hours.

So why not offer to pay more? Businesses accept that they have to pay competitively to recruit senior executives and justify high salaries by citing ‘market forces’. Why doesn’t the same apply to ordinary workers?

One of the alleged benefits of Brexit was supposed to be that the U.K. economy would be forced to break its addiction to an unlimited supply of cheap immigrant labour. So why isn’t it happening? Why aren’t wages rising?

I think it's frankly ridiculous that we have a Costa/ Starbucks and coffee shops at every corner of the UK. They should fail !
We managed perfectly well without them and we will again.

Because the hospitality industry is, for individual operators at least, on its knees. Bars, pubs and restaurants are expensive to run, and have increasingly narrowing profit margins. Staff turnover is generally high and attracts younger inexperienced applicants, because of anti social working hours. Food and drinks prices are rocketing but customers don't like price increases, esp after lockdown when the are used to supermarket prices for booze. Add to that the difficulty of maintaining a loyal customer base throughout endless restrictions, rule changes, lockdowns and reopenings and the amount of money its taken most of the industry just to be able to open its doors again and you have a perfect storm. Its why so many places are going out of business. Wages wont be rising any time soon.

@BarbaraofSeville

But that was exceptionally well paid for the time wings. I worked in Greggs at about the same time and earned about £2-3 an hour - I can't remember exactly how much, but what I can remember is that when I started full time work in 1992 my full time wage was £6500 pa. 4 hours pay was about £13.

It was, but it was a fair pay. It was classed as unsociable hours so it was either double or 2.5 x rate (can't quite remember). It was Presto supermarket.

My first full time job was around £7.5k p/a in the late 80s for 37.5 hour, 5 day week which was around £3.80 and hour, but again weekends were time and a half on a Saturday and double time on a Sunday. 4 hours on a Sunday would have been £30.

So still got more 35 years ago, when £25 went a long long way, than a young person would do now for weekend work.

But where does it stop, increase NMW and every other wage has to increase by the same amount, that also means employer NI and Pension contributions increase for everyone you employ

Wrong question.

The question is just how much should the tax payer subsidise businesses via topping up of wages and rent so that we can eat cheap pizzas? Because that is the reality of low wages.

Surely this is the realm of students? Once they are back at university and out of lockdown they will be desperate for these hospitality jobs. I think one of the downsides of EU immigration has been the loss of student and Saturday jobs.

The number of people who's wages are 'subsidised by the taxpayer' is probably a relatively small percentage, so I'm not sure that's relevant.

Young people still living at home probably wouldn't get any top ups, nor would anyone without DC, or anyone with a working partner unless they were also on a low wage and they had DC.

The only people who get top ups would be single parents, or those part of a couple who have DC and have a low household income.

The question is just how much should the tax payer subsidise businesses via topping up of wages and rent so that we can eat cheap pizzas? Because that is the reality of low wages.
I agree with you.
Then the media present the issue as people on benefits being the problem, rather than employers who don't pay a living wage.
The focus is always on those in the lower wage positions and those in receipt of benefits because the public love a deserving/undeserving poor argument.

The number of people who's wages are 'subsidised by the taxpayer' is probably a relatively small percentage, so I'm not sure that's relevant

It really isn't small. Last time I looked at stats in excess of 1.5m families were in receipt of tax credits. That is just families and excluded singles or couples on universal credit top ups and all housing benefits.

Young people still living at home probably wouldn't get any top ups, nor would anyone without DC, or anyone with a working partner unless they were also on a low wage and they had DC

So in the case of young workers their families should subsidise the business instead of the tax payer?

The only people who get top ups would be single parents, or those part of a couple who have DC and have a low household income

Single people need to live as well and can access housing benefit and universal credit to enable them to live.

Fundamentally the question is what businesses contribute so much to society that they merit public or individual subsidy to survive?

Last time I looked at stats in excess of 1.5m families were in receipt of tax credits

Those numbers were pre pandemic btw.

One of my children has been working in hospitality while training in something else. During the pandemic the employer first used furlough and eventually let most staff go once employer had to pay some of furlough.

It was OK for her as she was able to boost up hours of training course but for others they had to get jobs elsewhere. Now things are going back to normal the employer can't find enough staff. Keep having recruitment drives.

@RolloTomassi

I'd assume hospitality wages are stagnant because the industry has been forcibly closed for months on end. But buildings still have to be heated, powered and maintained, stock bought, rent paid, investment in covid-secure measures. Meanwhile SD capacities and covid operating procedures make trading difficult. How are wage rises supposed to be funded?

But the landscape has changed. There is no cheap eastern european labour anymore so you will just have to be competitive in the market place.

This isn’t about people like you who have moved here and made it their home. It’s about fruit pickers, hospitality workers and those in the construction industry where one member of a family comes, lives as cheaply as possible to send money home where it’s worth a lot more and then leaves again. You’re comparing apples and pears. All you have in common in not being British.

It is not apples and oranges for many. Lots of people get the difference between migrant and immigrant, but many simply go and do "well all these low wages are because immigrants work for less because they live 10 to a room and send everything back to their countries and don't ask for more money". Not all do. It just sounds sometimes like that's just general view of migrants and immigrants working in lower paid industries and that's a shame.

Feels like only 5 minutes ago there were lots of smug pro-Brexit posters on MN asking why all the predicted problems hadn’t materialised...where have all those posters gone I wonder?

The hospitality industry is a joke. My DH has been a chef for 20 years. He has had a handful of secure jobs in that time. He's taken jobs at a restaurant only to be told a couple of months later that it's being sold and the new owner is bringing in their own staff. It's a joke. He was without income for months over lockdown. He's back in hospitality now but is desperately trying to leave. I imagine others are in the same boat.

Fundamentally the question is what businesses contribute so much to society that they merit public or individual subsidy to survive?
I agree, surely the main contribution of the hospitality industry is obesity and it's resultant health problems, and let's not forget excessive alcohol consumption

[quote Overthebow]@Susie477 would you be willing to pay more when going to these places? I would do that staff can have higher wages, but plenty wouldn’t.[/quote]
I absolutely get your point but people should have been on proper wages ages ago. Now they will have to be paid more, or the jobs won't be filled. I'm sorry for the people who cannot afford to pay the higher price of going to restaurants, but not for those who just prefer not to. And even for the first group, people's (moral) right to be able to afford restaurants etc. does not trump the rights of employees to be paid a proper wage.

I agree that the perks of a hospitality job are what make it, not the wages.

what perks exactly? The last hospitality job I had didn't even include a staff meal. Sure we got staff discount of 50% but this didn't apply to happy hour and it was at the time of eat out to help out, so we were paying exactly the same as the general public. There was 0 perks for minimum wage, 12+ hour shifts, and dealing with frankly awful customers with incredibly levels of entitlement. I got my shifts on a Thursday or Friday for the next week starting Monday so had no time to plan, completely changing hours, some weeks 12, some weeks 50, absolutely no consistency, it was shit. Or should I just 'buck up' and accept it so you can eat for cheap?

I also think many young workers need to buck up their ideas.

Of course you think the youngsters need to buck up, but you're not willing to go take these jobs with shitty wages and no perks yourself, because you're better than that but the young have to put up with shit

what perks exactly?

I suspect posters talking about perks in hospitality may be harking back to my student days in the 80s when there was relatively better pay, rarely a shift without a meal, often a part time contract with extra shifts available (sometimes expected), useable staff discounts and shifts were long enough to qualify for a break.

It was still damned hard work but my DC at the same stage were on less pay per hour (adjusted for inflation) than I was, on zero hour contracts routinely having a manager shout down the phone that they were needed "right now or no job next week", no meals or discounts and shifts sized so that no breaks were provided. My kids could rely on family support and so didn't need to work, they wanted to work and be independent because that is how they were raised.

Frankly anyone tellinig them they need to buck up their ideas and be grateful to be treated like crap for low money just so that others can have a subsidised beer and a cheap fry up can do one.

I work in retail /hospitality, and while I wouldn't claim to be good at much, I am really good at my job because I am very good with customers (and acknowledged as such by my bosses) - I genuinely care and I try really hard to make sure they have a good experience. But. But.. Since this whole covid thing started the public, by and large, have been so horrible to deal with (and they weren't always great before, but it has definitely ramped up hugely) , and being customer facing we get the brunt of it. People are entitled, demanding, unwilling to comply with rules (which we don't make by the way, does anyone ever think about that?!) , harsh, insulting, selfish, etc etc. And it really gets to you, however enthusiastic and committed you are. One customer spoke to me a few days ago like I was a lump of dog shit she found on the bottom of her shoe..for reasons only known to her.. And I stood there and took it, as I always do.. But I went home that night and asked myself if I REALLY wanted to spend the last working years of my life with people who treat me like that just because they can. I'm not sure that I do. I suspect, market conditions aside, that THIS is why fewer people want to do these jobs any more. It's soul destroying.

When I worked in hospitality and tourism-based jobs, I wasn't too worried about the poor wages. They were very low but at least you knew where you stood and could budget around it. What I did worry about however was the lack of security. When it got to November and I was down to working just one day a week was always stressful. For this reason I worked flat out whenever the opportunity arose. Not ideal. Zero-hours seasonal work is great for students and school kids after pin money but not for earning a living. With this in mind, one of the best things the government could do would be to stagger the school holidays around the country to spread out the peak season. Not much can be done about the miserable winter weather though.

The wages in the hospitality industry are appalling. And working tax credits help facilitate the poor wages. If a job can't be made to pay a living wage then it doesn't need to be done. Every job should pay its way without the need for s top up from the state in tax credits.

@IDontKnowHowToBeBetter I feel exactly the same. I'm sorry that twat spoke to you like that. I've worked in hospitality and customer facing roles for years now. Decided this is my last year. I am done.

One of the problems is fewer students seem to take jobs these days, and many students have also remained at home until face to face learning returns so are less likely to be looking. We've stopped older school children having evening/weekend jobs. Even in our relatively small rural area, most of my friends worked waiting tables when I was at school. Kids don't do that now.

I think this does make a difference. GCSE and A levels have an intense amount of content to learn and the 8 hours a week Saturday job we used to have in the 80s/90s doesn't seem to exist - except in the odd independent cafe or shop. Shifts are erratic and hours long. It was likely preferable to employ overseas staff, with their greater availability, than to entice students.

DD 18 struggled to get a job at all in 2020 - unsurprisingly. Friends who already had jobs, had immense pressure placed on them to increase their hours if they worked in a supermarket or hospitality (when things opened up last summer/Autumn) they felt scared to say no. But the hours were too numerous for them to stay on top of their A level studies without having a negative impact.

DD got a job this year, a few months before finishing A levels and fortunately the managers - a fast food franchise - allowed her to limit her hours to one shift per week until her availability increased. There are now loads of jobs advertised, which are paying a little more, but she will stay where she is because of how reasonable they have been. Another friend of hers got a job at a high end restaurant and did not last long as the boss was a bully. There are many parents who would rather their teenage children focus on their studies and don't take a part time job, and they can afford to give them a generous allowance themselves.

Students could fill some of the gaps in hospitality, without prices and wages needing to increase, but employers need to understand the different needs of students and accommodate them with better conditions/hours/shift patterns.

People on this thread and the last one on the subject kept droning on about students wanting shitty hospitality jobs. Nope. Students can do work from home jobs, as detailed on previous posts, they won’t be selling their labour in shit conditions for poverty wages. Good on them!

The number of people who's wages are 'subsidised by the taxpayer' is probably a relatively small percentage

There are about 7 million people who are entitled to Working Tax Credit, and about 2 million of those don't claim, or about 1/4 of all employees in the UK.