AIBU to think that child maintenance is actually very unfair to the RP?

[ECJW]

Just a thought I had due to speaking to my ex about costs for our DD and it hit me, NRP only have to give up a certain % of their incomes a week even though they don’t have to think about or incur any of the day to day costs of having children...

AIBU to think that it’s unfair that RP gets the brunt of paying for most of these things?

It occurred to me that even if ex paid £180 a month that it would only be covering DD’s packed lunches and a couple of extra bits and that’s it... that’s without normal groceries for her, drinks, clothes she might need, shoes she might need, school costs, activities and everything else...

Just out of curiosity, what do you think is an appropriate amount of child maintenance for one child when NRP has no other children to support?

@reallyreallyborednow

Put simply, an NRP might pay more because they care about their kids

Or they may pay less because they want to provide a home for their kids, and therefore be able to spend more time with them rather than handing over all their money, and only being able to afford a house share and occasional trip to the zoo.

Money isn’t always better than time.

In which case, the NRP could apply for 50/50 and pay a much lower share of cm but provide a much higher share of actual care.

It's not much good for kids if they have nice bedrooms to visit and all the latest consoles at their dad's house EOW, but spend the other 12-14 nights in a cramped place with poor quality shoes (or worse, really poor quality childcare), and missing out of school trips (or on time with their primary carer), because the NRP is having to fund all the rest of their possessions plus the house, heating and other bills, without even a 50% contribution from their father and unable to get an equally good job due to needing to be around for school runs and overnight.

I don't buy the "I can't go for promotions" thing. And actually, it's insulting to those of us who work full time. "They need parenting" yeah cos those of us who go for promotion just simply don't parent. What a joke.

Equally the "his wife has a job" - irrevelant.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

I don't buy the "I can't go for promotions" thing. And actually, it's insulting to those of us who work full time. "They need parenting" yeah cos those of us who go for promotion just simply don't parent. What a joke.

Equally the "his wife has a job" - irrevelant.

I've got a full time job as a single parent, one that is fortunate to be pretty senior, flexible and well paid enough to have good childcare. I've had promotions despite taking the lion's share of work. Even then, I've still had to turn down higher paying opportunities that involved travel or evening client meetings, and the personal cost has been huge, I do barely any exercise for example because there just aren't hours in the day, and my kids have talents I can't nourish because I need to be at work. If you're working but need to rely on nursery hours or can't afford lots of wraparound care, then absolutely it limits your options far more.

Nobody is saying that you can't be a good parent and go for promotions. Just that for many people, in their specific circumstances, it isn't possible. Do you truly believe that the majority of single mothers are just lazy for not being able to work full time? Maybe you need to widen either your social circle or your imagination a little.

I have a full time professional job. Which I do slightly half arsed sometimes because of the demands of being the only "on call" parent. Literally in the X years since we split, he has not once had to leave in the middle of the day, not go in, refuse an early or late meeting or turn down overnight training courses. I have. If I sought promotion, I would have to turn up to this out of hours stuff and pay for childcare. I could afford it, with the higher wage, but my kids do deserve to see a parent for at least a couple of hours every night, with very rare exceptions. If I took promotions, that wouldn't happen. And "his wife has a job" is relevant in the fact that he can split his household bills and all the chores etc with another adult. I am not interested in blending a family with my partner and his son and pushing yet another change on my kids and that's fine. I'm not martyring myself. It is what it is. But an acknowledgement of the utter disparity and unfairness of it, both in terms of personal autonomy and finance would be nice.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

I don't buy the "I can't go for promotions" thing. And actually, it's insulting to those of us who work full time. "They need parenting" yeah cos those of us who go for promotion just simply don't parent. What a joke.

Equally the "his wife has a job" - irrevelant.

Neither do I. Plenty of parents work full time, take promotions etc.

Perfectly possible to parent and work.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss yes plenty of parents work full time. But this is specifically about single parents, and specifically about those whose partners contribute very little - generally well below half the cost of full time childcare. Unless you're well above the average wage, paying for full time early years childcare as a single person is not often manageable for even one child, let alone multiple DCs. Again, I am a full time single working mother and even on a high income it is really hard to.manage and as soon as there's illness or a big work deadline things tend to fall apart fast. It would be absolutely impossible without a big financial cushion or outside support.

@OverTheRubicon the harsh reality is why should the NRP pick up childcare costs for the days they are not scheduled to be with them?

@Loveacoseynightin. The harsh reality is that many NRPs don't care that childcare costs prevent the RP from providing a decent life for their joint children.

[quote Loveacoseynightin]@OverTheRubicon the harsh reality is why should the NRP pick up childcare costs for the days they are not scheduled to be with them?

[/quote]
No, the harsh reality is that it's absolute bollocks that they get away with not paying half the costs of raising the child they chose to bring into the world. Very few men want or ever argue for 50/50 in mediation or court, and a good percentage of those who do, end up backing out once the financial settlement is agreed/ they discover Tindr. Then that leaves women doubly screwed on a professional basis - they have so many more days where they are limited by the hours of wraparound care or holiday clubs AND then they have to pay for the childcare too. A single child in nursery costs £80 a day. That's £20800 a year, out of post tax income, of which you can only get back £2000 in childcare tax credits. Plus you have to sprint out of the office at 5pm on the dot (or 10 mins early) no matter what work is left, to get one child from.after school club and one from nursery. They're still the last kids left. If one gets chickpox, then another, youre using all your sick leave or some annual leave and also your boss's goodwill, especially because it's about to be school holidays and for some reason all the clubs run 9.30-3.30 so you have to WFH while caring for a 5 year old. Meanwhile dad has them eow, is paying nothing in your scenario, and can comfortably work until 6 and then go for a beer with the boss. Of course he's getting the promotions.

I don't think in practical terms you can work out a 50% cost split, but it's yet another argument for more state support for childcare. So many single mothers end up leaving the workforce for years and then it's very hard to get back and yes, it often ends up being a bigger burden for the tax payer.

@HugeAckmansWife

I have a full time professional job. Which I do slightly half arsed sometimes because of the demands of being the only "on call" parent. Literally in the X years since we split, he has not once had to leave in the middle of the day, not go in, refuse an early or late meeting or turn down overnight training courses. I have. If I sought promotion, I would have to turn up to this out of hours stuff and pay for childcare. I could afford it, with the higher wage, but my kids do deserve to see a parent for at least a couple of hours every night, with very rare exceptions. If I took promotions, that wouldn't happen. And "his wife has a job" is relevant in the fact that he can split his household bills and all the chores etc with another adult. I am not interested in blending a family with my partner and his son and pushing yet another change on my kids and that's fine. I'm not martyring myself. It is what it is. But an acknowledgement of the utter disparity and unfairness of it, both in terms of personal autonomy and finance would be nice.

So because your ex is an arsehole, no single parent can can go for promotion? Ok.

@OverTheRubicon the only person who has said the word lazy, is you.

A single child in nursery costs £80 a day

Not in most places it doesn't.

The reality is that if both parents wanted EOW and to pay 12% of their gross weekly income, the kids would be screwed.

Why is this an ok contribution from one parent then?

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

I don't buy the "I can't go for promotions" thing. And actually, it's insulting to those of us who work full time. "They need parenting" yeah cos those of us who go for promotion just simply don't parent. What a joke.

Equally the "his wife has a job" - irrevelant.

The next promotion in my old job, for example, comes with 25% international travel. And yes, I worked full time, more than full time actually - standard City hours of 8 am to 8 pm. No, it is not manageable as a single parent to small children. Yes, it is absolutely manageable as a parent from a two-income two-adult family.

There’s quite a lot of nitpicking here. Of course RPs can and do get promotions. But NRPs, unless they have their kids 50/50, have a significant advantage in that they don’t have to consider their children’s needs or childcare needs when taking on an extra shift, or going to a 6pm meeting. As a RP, either me or my mum do the school run every afternoon and evening. Ex has them EOW and that’s all. When ex and I were still together I dropped my hours after returning from maternity leave from DS1, for childcare reasons. He has a job where he can work anything between 30 and 80 hours a week, with overtime paid as extra. My hours are fixed at 22.5. Of course that puts him at a significant advantage financially, and in the jobs market. It would be silly to suggest otherwise

@Jellybabiesforbreakfast

The reality is that if both parents wanted EOW and to pay 12% of their gross weekly income, the kids would be screwed.

Why is this an ok contribution from one parent then?

Why is it okay? Well 12% of someone's income might be a tiny bit or it might be well enough to raise a child on. I can't say it's enough because AGAIN I don't think the system is any good and it needs to be assessed on a case to case basis.

It is different in every case. You cannot blanket say it's not enough. You just can't.

*every morning and afternoon, that should say

@OverTheRubicon is it very few men? Why should a man go to mediation and court just for 50/50 access that should be a given.

Again the reality is most women don't want the ex to have 50/50 as they wouldn't get any money and always come up with the excuse "50/50 isn't good for the child"

@cadburyegg

There’s quite a lot of nitpicking here. Of course RPs can and do get promotions. But NRPs, unless they have their kids 50/50, have a significant advantage in that they don’t have to consider their children’s needs or childcare needs when taking on an extra shift, or going to a 6pm meeting. As a RP, either me or my mum do the school run every afternoon and evening. Ex has them EOW and that’s all. When ex and I were still together I dropped my hours after returning from maternity leave from DS1, for childcare reasons. He has a job where he can work anything between 30 and 80 hours a week, with overtime paid as extra. My hours are fixed at 22.5. Of course that puts him at a significant advantage financially, and in the jobs market. It would be silly to suggest otherwise

But is that not a choice you made?

I get what you're saying, I really do. But why when you were together did that choice happen?

In my mind, if you're so set on equality in money and raising children why not ensure that set up when you have them?

@cadburyegg yeah cos only seeing your kids twice every fortnight is such an advantage.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro The next promotion in my old job, for example, comes with 25% international travel. And yes, I worked full time, more than full time actually - standard City hours of 8 am to 8 pm. No, it is not manageable as a single parent to small children. Yes, it is absolutely manageable as a parent from a two-income two-adult family.

You say you understand it, but just a few comments up you made a snarky remark about 'I don't buy this not able to go for promotions thing'... But this entire thread is about single parents. It's not about you and your much more comfortable dual city income setup.

Nursery costs can be over £80 per day in some parts of London. Where they are much cheaper, wages are generally much lower. In Huddersfield for example, you can do a full week for £260, so £52 a day. However the average weekly wage there is £424 a week - and most single mothers are well under average wage.

Why is it okay? Well 12% of someone's income might be a tiny bit or it might be well enough to raise a child on. I can't say it's enough because AGAIN I don't think the system is any good and it needs to be assessed on a case to case basis.

It is different in every case. You cannot blanket say it's not enough.
You just can't.

Oh, I think you can. Child benefit for one child on an 'average' £30,000 salary is going to be around £250 per month (assuming EOW contact). That's £3,000 per year.

Assuming both parents pay £6,000 per year and have their children for 4 nights a fortnight between them, that doesn't come close to the £8,400 average annual cost of raising a child and there is no one to look after the child for the other 8 days per fortnight.

Clearly one parent isn't pulling their weight in most cases. What would happen if both parents wanted to be NRP?

getoffyourarse not sure why you're so determined to pick a fight with me. My ex, by the standard on here, is apparently great. He does EOW and pays the CMS amount so I should be v grateful. He does exactly what is deemed to be enough by many. But the brute fact is that the RP and NRP in situations like mine, which seem to be pretty standard, are vastly different in what they can do professionally. I don't really see how you can deny that. I'm not making any statement about ALL RPs or NRPs. As many have said, all situations and set ups are different. But an NRP who only sees their kids at the weekend has a massive advantage and is subsidized in doing that by the RP who is covering the childcare, either by doing it themselves or paying ££££.

As to choice, we used to split things pretty evenly - we both worked about the same amount and did childcare pick up etc. But he CHOSE to disappear and left it all to me. As I said upthread, I'd happily give him 50/50.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro it was a choice WE made, not just me. That I would do the bulk of the childcare and he would support us accordingly. I don’t understand why a decision we made over 5 years ago means that we should apparently settle for the bare minimum. I’m not a mind reader.

@Loveacoseynightin but we aren’t talking about access, are we? We are talking about the disparities of ££ between NRPs and RPs. As it happens, I’d bite my ex’s hand off if he said he wanted 50/50

[quote OverTheRubicon]**@Getyourarseofffthequattro* The next promotion in my old job, for example, comes with 25% international travel. And yes, I worked full time, more than full time actually - standard City hours of 8 am to 8 pm. No, it is not manageable as a single parent to small children. Yes, it is absolutely manageable as a parent from a two-income two-adult family.*

You say you understand it, but just a few comments up you made a snarky remark about 'I don't buy this not able to go for promotions thing'... But this entire thread is about single parents. It's not about you and your much more comfortable dual city income setup.

Nursery costs can be over £80 per day in some parts of London. Where they are much cheaper, wages are generally much lower. In Huddersfield for example, you can do a full week for £260, so £52 a day. However the average weekly wage there is £424 a week - and most single mothers are well under average wage.[/quote]
It wasn't snarky - I get that you have more responsibility for the kids but I still don't get why that stops you going further. it doesn't have to.

Yes and on a crap wage UC will top it up to help pay for childcare.

If we keep telling women it's impossible do you think that's a good thing?