The end of shopping centres?

[sotiredofthislonelylife]

Apparently, the vast majority of people surveyed in Nottingham do not wish to have another (indoor) shopping centre in place of one recently demolished.
I can understand that some areas are in desperate need of regeneration, but I’m not convinced that a return to shopping ‘streets’ is the answer.
I can remember the misery of trying to shop with babies/small children/people in wheelchairs in wet and windy weather. Dealing with coats, umbrellas etc., when going in and out of stores was frustrating and often curtailed the outing.
Comparing that to the ability to park above the shops, and wander around in comfort without worrying about crossing roads and protecting everyone from sun, rain, wind and snow, it just seems a backward step.

AIBU = Most people prefer a return to High Street type shopping
AINBU = Shopping centres make life easier, especially for families

Do you remember it when new? There was a massive Co-op department store in there which was excellent.

I remember the old Co op which had a marvellous etched black glass stair case. My mum bought my school uniform skirt there and the French teacher told me off in front of the class because it faded and she thought it was no longer regulation colour!

(Sorry, well off topic!)

I went to university in Nottingham - graduated 10 years ago and Broadmarsh was grim even then. Dark, dingy, rubbish shops and zero appeal whatsoever. I only ever used it as a cut-through from the bus station.

But saying that, even the Victoria Centre isn't brilliant in terms of shops - yes, it had John Lewis and House of Fraser but in general the top floor was pretty dull, especially the weird indoor market thing.

All these things have history. The Victoria centre was built on the site of the former railway station and incorporated the market hall from adjacent site. The Broadmarsh was slum housing although not brilliant it was typical of 1970s town planning and had to cope with being on the

Oops.
...side of a hill and over the caves. It takes time to redevelop an area properly and it won't be a quick fix. Shops are important but they aren't everything.

I think it depends on the centre. Liverpool One is quite decent and has a good mix of inside and outside. And Leeds also has a good mix of indoor and outdoor. I also think the Oracle in Reading is ok, or at least used to be pre-covid and is only 5 mins walk from the main railway station.

But eg Festival Place in Basingstoke has units which are too small (though is close to the railway station) and the St Johns centre in Liverpool is pretty depressing (though next to the bus station). Clayton Square is a bit meh too.

I've never been to Bluewater but I did once go to Westfield at Stratford. Somewhat overrated.

The shopping centre I did quite like was Cheshire Oakes. Lots of shops and lots of choice - and outdoors with plenty of parking.

I'm only interested in out of town shopping retail parks where I can park for free near the shops and go to the shops I want.

@Bythemillpond

I don’t go shopping on the High street. I think the last time I regularly shopped on a high street was sometime in the early 80s. It was dying then mainly due to parking costs and the fact you had to hike in the wet weather to get from car to shops. My hometown high street was really busy. On a Saturday you had to fight for space to walk between cars looking for parking spaces and the amount of people on the pavement Some council team went on a jolly to Southern France in the late 70s and came back with the vision of paving over the high street and having out doors cafes where people could sit sipping hot chocolate and nibbling a croissant. It was met with high amusement from anyone who had a bit of realism. Trying to compare Southern France with a very damp, cold and wet Northern town made everyone laugh. But they pressed ahead and paved over the high street and put in parking for about 20 cars a little further away which you now had to pay for (if you could get a space) It coincided with the opening of an out of town shopping mall and very soon the high street dried up. The small independent shops couldn’t afford the new rates. Put up to pay for the work done on the high street. They moved out and a few chain stores moved in. But gradually it did die a death. I was up in the town on a Saturday about 20 years ago and it was so quiet. There weren’t any of the stores I grew up with but a lot of cafes and wine bars.

For me personally places like the High street or Bicester Village type places hold no appeal. I just don’t like freezing to death or getting rained on whilst supposedly having a day out.
Our local town centre has a large shopping centre. Pre pandemic it was bustling. Now it looks sad as we have lost a lot of shops like Debenhams, Top Shop etc and it’s other large department store.
We have started to use another mall that’s a little further out where there isn’t the amount of shop closures.
Nothing will get me battling through wind and rain to go from shop to shop.
If I need anything I will order it on line.

We had a shop for 30 years in a shopping centre in a busy Northern town. The 90s were very busy, difficult to parj, queues at all the town car parks, car parks full at busy times. By the end of the 90s, 3 out of town centres were built with free parking, then the Trafford Centre opened. For the next 15 years we worked hard to grow the business, but every December was harder work for lower turnover, customers were using the out of town and the Trafford Centre, but we soldiered on, with our website taking up the shortfall.The council then dug up the main road through the town and turned it into a shared space. This caused chaos for two years, but we were promised it would be a fantastic addition to the town. When it opened it was still chaos. They added a bus lane with 1,000s of people fined £60 for going down it, they put a detour in that meant parkers in our centre's car park faced a 20minute extra to get out of town. By 2018 we could see which way the wind was blowing, footfall was down by 25% over 5 years, and was continuing to fall, we had a chance to get out of the lease before we spent our pension savings so we closed. The reason I copied the previous post, it is common for the council to get the blame for increasing rates. The council collect business rates but the amount you pay is determined by central government. I can't see high streets coming back. I think we will see shopping centres demolished and blocks of flats built, smaller shops will be converted to residential, and the town centre will become much smaller. Problem is, it will take decades for the changes to be complete,

I know it was said jokingly but I think parkland is the way forward. Plus parking.

Also exercise studios and those public facing businesses that currently are on small industrial parks.

Is it really a choice between high street vs shopping centre though? I'd imagine it's more a case of a good % of retail moving online so that's why people don't want more indoor shopping centres.

But I do agree if it's a choice between shopping centres or high street shopping in the UK then I'd pick shopping centres. But if it's a choice between online shopping or shopping centres I'd pick online shopping 80% of the time. If I'm in the majority it would explain why people don't want another indoor shopping centre... Cause they don't have any interest in leaving the house to do their shopping if they can avoid it.

@Hairbrush123

There is a lovely retail park by me with M&S, Boots, Primark with free parking! I mainly go as it’s free parking. I favour this over my local shopping centre as it’s so depressing. I second Cribbs Causeway! Love that place.

I live very near there! It's very handy indeed! Not so keen on Cabot Circus though. Soulless and expensive

I tend to go to Derby now unless I want to go to John Lewis, as it’s for everything in one place. Used to go to Outfit before it closed.

Is it really a choice between high street vs shopping centre though?

It is if the high street was bulldozed for the shopping centre....

Lincslady53
Whilst shop rates might have gone up it was the paving over of the high street that really sounded the death knell for my home town centre.
People used to drive down it, drop passengers off, come round and pick the passenger up who had just nipped in somewhere to get something. If we want to make the high street more accessible I think we need to rip up the paved over roads, allow free parking along the sides of the road and let all traffic through again..
Sometimes people just want one thing and it is quicker and cheaper to order on line and wait 24 hours than face going into town and spend a significant portion of the day parking then walking to and from the shop then once back to the car paying for the privilege. I think a return to dropping someone off in front of a shop so they can nip in whilst the driver waits or goes around would increase trade hugely.
I think paving everything over just made the high street inaccessible

I moved to this particular town 20 years ago and have only once walked the whole of the high street
There is one bit I have never ventured beyond as it becomes too far to walk. I only went as far as I did because of Laura Ashley. When that closed there didnt seem to be a reason to go out of the mall.
The local council did everything to stop you walking out of the mall.
I don’t know anyone who makes the trek up to the top of the high street. It is just too far to go on foot to see what is up there

This is the second time on this thread that you have banged the drum for ‘rip up the pedestrianised streets and arrange the town centre so that I can park anywhere I like, for free’. You’re obsessed. You must see that there are other features of town centres that people consider important?

Being free of traffic noise and fumes, perhaps? Being able to cross the road easily? Not having to constantly keep hold of small children? Being in a more pleasant and open environment?

Iamthewombat So why aren’t high streets packed with people like they were before they pedestrianised everywhere.
Why is the High Street dying if being able to walk in what would have been the middle of the road is so great?

I remember the effect pedestrianisation had on my home town and it was like night and day. This was before internet shopping.
People thought twice about nipping into town to get something and travelled further to another town to pick something up where you could drive down the high street and drop someone off and then pick up. In just a short period of time the council killed the high street.
And yes I want to park for free. So I go to an out of town shopping centre that is packed and I can park nearish the shop I need or drop someone off right by the door and wait or do a circuit of the car park and then pick up and go home.
I don’t have any public transport where I live. I can’t walk the miles to the town centre so in order to compete they need to make it more accessible and car friendly as not everyone is able to just walk. Very few people live near a town centre. Most people drive so discouraging the motorist is going to push the majority of people to the out of town shopping centres with free parking.

I prefer to travel slightly further to the large shopping centre with free parking if I have my toddler with me, compared to travel to city centre. Both have a place though I think

I moved to this particular town 20 years ago and have only once walked the whole of the high street
There is one bit I have never ventured beyond as it becomes too far to walk. I only went as far as I did because of Laura Ashley. When that closed there didnt seem to be a reason to go out of the mall.
The local council did everything to stop you walking out of the mall.
I don’t know anyone who makes the trek up to the top of the high street. It is just too far to go on foot to see what is up there

Sorry but this made me laugh. Unless the town is halfway up Kilimanjaro I think it's unlikely that the top of the high street is a simply unreachable trek. People might not want to go there (though if there are still businesses there someone must be doing this daunting hike) but you make it sound like it's a trip to the moon rather than a wander down an paved path...

I am sure people go there but it is divided and I walked up to the top once, didn’t see anything that I was interested in and never bothered going again. The whole of the high street is about a mile long. I really don’t have time to do an extra mile round trip on the off chance there is anything when you get there and you have to consider the cost of parking for the extra hour it goes into.

Its not Lincoln is it ? @Bythemillpond might have a point.

I don’t have any public transport where I live. I can’t walk the miles to the town centre

But you have a car, right, why not just park it in a car park and walk to the shop you want to visit? Oh, wait. It’s because you don’t want to pay for car parking.

I think a return to dropping someone off in front of a shop so they can nip in whilst the driver waits or goes around would increase trade hugely

You make this remark in the context of only needing to go into town to buy one thing. In order to do so, you expect to walk as few steps as possible. Do you think that enabling you to buy your ‘one thing’ with minimum physical effort and zero cost is going to revolutionise takings in your local high street?

No not Lincoln. But is probably similar.

@CatsPyjama

I tend to go to Derby now unless I want to go to John Lewis, as it’s for everything in one place. Used to go to Outfit before it closed.

A lot of people are hoping John Lewis can be enticed to either take over where Debenhams was in Derby Eagle Centre (Westfield/INTU/Derbion/whatever it is now) or into the Beckettwell development where old Debenhams was -- I've seen it more than once in discussions on it that if we had that, then there would be no reason to go to Nottingham

I think the very slowly building up of more than shopping to do has helped, though it needs to be planned in better. With so many 'developments' that don't end up bringing in nearly as much as they plan and screwing over local residents, some of the new ideas flying about can be a concern.

If you have ever tried ‘High Street’ shopping with a wheelchair user, you would certainly be longing for the safety and convenience of an indoor centre, with its’ level entry shops, lifts and disabled loos.

I've both shopped with those who use wheelchairs, mobility scooters, and other mobility devices, and I've shopped using those myself -- and as a pp said, the Broadmarsh sucks for that. The lift particularly is awful, even wobbly on sticks, I've avoided it, I felt safer on the stairs than in that thing.

I tend to be cautious in Derby's shopping centre because the toilets are mostly in awkward out of the way places, like an after thought shoved in the cut-offs -- which leaves me feeling vulnerable that it would take a while if something happened. It's better than most of the rest of the city centre because the council closes everything even before having COVID as an excuse, but just because something is inside doesn't make it better for disabled people, it takes a bit more thought than that.

The days of shopping as a leisure activity ( I never did understand that, so boring) and driving to the door need to be be behind us?. Climate change and pollution.

Have less, drive less, fly less. Sorry, but if you are bothered about the next generation that's how it has to be.

I prefer our shopping centre ( we do to westfields )
For many reasons it’s just everything in one place.
Paying for parking isn’t an issue when a lot of online stores charge for delivery.

I find if I am shopping online for 3 kids etc I end up paying mutiple delivery fees.
So once every 3 months I got to westfields to get what everyone needs.

I live almost 50 miles from my nearest decent sized town ( SWEngland) and public transport is virtually non existent. I went to Exeter once, got caught in holiday traffic and it took me 2.25 hours to get there. And then I parked two miles out of the city centre and walked in.
That's why I rely on internet shopping!