The end of shopping centres?

[sotiredofthislonelylife]

Apparently, the vast majority of people surveyed in Nottingham do not wish to have another (indoor) shopping centre in place of one recently demolished.
I can understand that some areas are in desperate need of regeneration, but I’m not convinced that a return to shopping ‘streets’ is the answer.
I can remember the misery of trying to shop with babies/small children/people in wheelchairs in wet and windy weather. Dealing with coats, umbrellas etc., when going in and out of stores was frustrating and often curtailed the outing.
Comparing that to the ability to park above the shops, and wander around in comfort without worrying about crossing roads and protecting everyone from sun, rain, wind and snow, it just seems a backward step.

AIBU = Most people prefer a return to High Street type shopping
AINBU = Shopping centres make life easier, especially for families

@FuzzyPuffling

Broadmarsh was always a dreadful place (wrong place, no decent shops) even when it was brand new.

Shops were shit but it had awesome structures for kids to climb inside.....I remember a grasshopper and something else ......you started at one end and basically had to “pot hole” your way to the other. Anyone else remember these?

One of the biggest downsides of shopping malls at the moment is masks - because they’re under cover you have to wear your mask the whole time whereas in an outdoor environment you can remove it between shops. It’s definitely affected where I choose to go although malls were never my favourite place.

@CovidCorvid god, you've just triggered a very distant memory for me. I know exactly what you're talking about but I can't quite picture where it was (if that makes sense)

The Broadmarsh had some brilliant shops if you were a young teenager - the big homewares shop on the corner upstairs, packed with 90s faux ethnic stuff and inflatable furniture. And I bought a lot from the poster shop next door to adorn my walls.

However, it had been seriously neglected in recent times. I can't really defend its existence, or the case for another shopping mall when the Vicky centre is just down the road.

I think we should look to have no more new out of town shopping centres and see how that helps the high street and town centre shopping centres.

Business rates are an analogue tax that should be replaced by something based on business turnover.

corvidcorvid yes, I remember the grasshopper! (totally forgotten til now). But then I remember going on holiday in a steam train from Victoria Station ( I was very young!)
And I remember the huge hype around the wacky fountain in the Vicky centre when it was new. And Habitat.

Who wants to go into town centre, pay for parking even at a mall, to only have a handful of shops to shop at. Town centre shopping is so dead it’s unreal. When you are not shopping online, shopping is a day out, so the larger out of town are malls offer everything - huge range of shops, entertainment, free parking, and limitless food options.

I think physical shopping is dying out, full stop

The problem is that I see higher prices on-line than in physical shops for many items now. Check Amazon and e-bay.

It seems that on-line retailers are taking advantage of the high-street struggles.

There needs to be options and variety. Otherwise the consumer will suffer.

We need the high-street and we need shopping centres.

We need cash and we need debit/cards and virtual payments.

Over reliance on any single thing is not good.

@CovidCorvid I remember the wooden caterpillar from childhood visits. Funny how people remember the public art more than the shops.

As for wanting a clean, convenient, covered mall with free parking, of course it's easy but be careful what you wish for, as there may soon be nothing else but those mega-Tescos and cinema complexes with chain restaurants.

The consultation is still happening but last I heard they were suggesting a large adventure type park, seating areas and meeting spaces with street food vendors / coffee stalls (which can be used for more adulty events in summer evenings), micro-business "pop-up-shops" (they are trying to get a plastic-free grocery supplier on board for a permanent space) and then a dedicated community space for workshops, classes etc

Which is great for about 6 weeks of the year but what about the other 46 weeks when it is raining, cold, damp and grey.

We are in May. Who would want to go out and use this type of place. Standing outside with rain lashing down, thunder and 50mph winds trying to talk to people whilst your coffee or food gets flooded with rain.

Like the local council growing up. Looking at things with the idea we have Summer weather, or weather that is conducive to being outdoors all year round is not realistic.
I think it is a waste of time trying to force out side areas into a scheme that people won’t use because it is pissing down with rain and freezing cold. It just ends up unused and a hang out for vandals and graffiti artists.

I remember the play structures & sliding down the wooden frog! It must've been quite something in its 70s heyday but Broad Marsh had become an embarrassment to Nottingham by the 21st century.

The park idea sounds idyllic but in reality it will take a lot of supervision to keep it as a nice area & not a place for drinking, drugs & antisocial behaviour like the rest of Nottingham's public parks. As there seems to be no money in the City Council's budget for anything like this, I can't see it happening.
As a pp pointed out, the temporary road structure is truly awful & so confusing. The walk into the centre from the station is depressing in the extreme, take the Tram if you're coming.
I'm personally going to really miss Debenhams & haven't got many reasons to go into Nottingham. The shopping centre in Derby is generally nicer but so many empty shops now.

Our high street is basically dead at this point, it's just charity shops, many many costas (There's 8 in our two within a 2 mile radius!)... The main reason is whoever owns the shopping centre charges crazy high rent and it's just cheaper to go to the retail park instead..
Therefore what's the point of going to the high street when the retail park (15 minute walk as opposed to the 5 minute high street) has bigger shops and more variety

Many landlords are London based, property management companies.

My local shopping centre is owned by venture capitalist, investment bankers who bought up the company that completely wrecked itself and the centre 'refurbishing' it.

Many shops were forced to close down to accommodate the works and some never returned.

Add shop closures due to the out of town shopping centre, consolidation due to restructuring and closing down due to the economic conditions and the missing shops are like a who's who of the British high street - Mothercare, ELC, British Home Stores, Evans, Burtons, Dorothy Perkins.

We also lost Tesco and WH Smith, which were popular.

There is nothing to bring in elderly shoppers (apart from SpecSavers), nothing for simple groceries, stationery, we're missing a dedicated Post Office and every shop looks like its on its uppers.

No one seems to have looked at the town, looked at it's deprived population and thought about what the town needs to bring people in.

The massive numbers of shuttered spaces are now covered in scribble boards - ask for some dry wipe pens and you can leave a message of love and hope.

The lease charges are beyond the capabilities of independent shops and even the small concession stands attract rents of thousands per month.

@FuzzyPuffling

Broadmarsh was always a dreadful place (wrong place, no decent shops) even when it was brand new.

Do you remember it when new? There was a massive Co-op department store in there which was excellent. I found the car park very useful as my car's too tall for the Victoria centre, and I enjoyed the walk up Lister gate or Bridlesmith gate.

Shops were shit but it had awesome structures for kids to climb inside.....I remember a grasshopper and something else ......you started at one end and basically had to “pot hole” your way to the other. Anyone else remember these?
Yep - much more fun that Vicky Centre's mock fountain made of palstic tapes and that clock - that only half worked when it was new and it hasn't improved with age or resiting.

Out of town shopping centres seem to be the future, with high streets in towns returned to residential use for students and young people.

One thing I hate about retail parks though, is that they only have one entry/exit, so you have to queue for ages to get on ir off, which really puts me off. Anyone know why they do this 'funnelling?'

I do like them in terms of free parking and safety though. Our town and city centres are overrun with homeless, beggars, people on Spice and Monkey Dust, plus, the toilets are closed.

I much prefer retail shopping centres-you stay nice and dry and get free parking all day.

I’m surprised by the number of posters for whom ‘parking anywhere I want, for free’ is the top priority!

All the complaints about streets being pedestrianised etc etc. A town centre clogged with cars and exhaust fumes isn’t a pleasant place to be.

As others said, Nottingham already has another larger shopping centre not very far from the Broadmarsh. I don't think we can say it's the 'end of shopping centres' or the return of high street shopping to think there might not be room for two of them in that area, especially with how Broadmarsh has decayed over the years.

There are things Nottingham, and many high street areas, could use far more than more shopping. I think we need to refocus spaces away from being shopping focused, and more onto community needs. Many of the ideas for the Broadmarsh include combinations of more green spaces, more housing, I've heard some discussing leisure or community centres, and yes some of it is high street shopping that matches the surrounding area better.

Derby is having similar argument though on a smaller scale with the Becketwell regeneration. Everyone agrees something needs to be done with the holes in the ground, but many disagree with the corporate focus of shoving in as much as possible with little consideration for local residents or what is actually around the space unused already. If we have the issue of empty shops in an area - including in the nearby shopping centre, making more shops doesn't make sense. If we have an issue of empty office spaces, making more isn't going to fix anything. If the last great regeneration project failed to live up to its promises, few will believe them this time.

Another one that prefers retail parks to either the high street or shopping centres. But being realistic, I'm not likely to use any very often. We buy almost everything online now.

We are in May. Who would want to go out and use this type of place. Standing outside with rain lashing down, thunder and 50mph winds trying to talk to people whilst your coffee or food gets flooded with rain.

Like the local council growing up. Looking at things with the idea we have Summer weather, or weather that is conducive to being outdoors all year round is not realistic.
I think it is a waste of time trying to force out side areas into a scheme that people won’t use because it is pissing down with rain and freezing cold. It just ends up unused and a hang out for vandals and graffiti artists.

While I agree you raise a fair point... is this really as much of an issue as it used to be? And should it continue to be as much of an issue as it always been? I live in Scotland so I am well used to 'summer' being a week in early April and a week in late September.

But for the last year now the only way to have a family day out, date, exercise, or socialise has been walking in the cold windy rain or sitting in the cold windy rain. I think the majority of people are totally used to it?

Why don't we just accept that we are a cold windy country and embrace it? And create outside spaces that are still enjoyable when it's cold and wet and windy? In my post I said primarily outdoors but I didn't say completely exposed to the elements and unsheltered.

The two local nurseries - one is a forest nursery and they are outside all day every day, the other have a building but they are outside at least 50% of the time.
The local school - half a day of outdoor learning at least twice per week come rain or shine. If the weather isn't absolutely horrendous they try to be outside more.

I'm all for this. I remember turning up to school when it was raining and there were cars literally backed up the street because some people cannot bear the thought of their little darlings (or them) walking for literally 90 seconds in the rain. We need to accept and prepare and dress and build society around the fact that it rains, without everything having to be inside.

Having said all that, I wish clothes shops would take everything in your post into account 100%. It's insane that the shops are full of shorts and skirts and beach dresses (especially in the north of the country) when it's 9'c in May and pissing with rain, and the only time we'd actually need them is a rare weekend or a holiday abroad.

Broadmarsh was a nightmarish shithole from the start, should have been demolished and replaced with a green space years ago.

The biggest difference is the shopping centers only want the big name brands which are all linked together anyway.

The high street is much more local and diverse with different types of shops. I much prefer an high street than the big brand name shops.

Hopefully people will start or are willing to pay more for British made and British built goods moving away from the Far East imports.

Pedestrianising town and city centres is all well and good, but it means the shops are marooned, with deliveries made awkward, pedestrians have to hike out to bus, tram and train stops and taxis and cars can't go there either.

Many parts of the Midlands, decimated by WW2 and blighted by town and city planners, have been designed for cars and road transport.

Historic buildings were bulldozed, streets widened, ring roads were built like mini M25s, car parks were built and cars prioritised.

Pedestrianising these widened streets, means there are bleak, wide 'boulevards' which offer no shelter, no amenities, are uninviting and are a minefield for chuggers, aimless youngsters and aggressive beggars.

The outdoor café culture town planners thought would be a good idea is non existent.

Yes that's another offputting thing tbh - going into town only to have to keep avoiding chuggers, people selling Sky or energy providers, people trying to give me leaflets, street preachers trying to stop people, etc.

There’s surely no one-size fits all answer.

The Nottingham Broadmarsh experience is more or less unique. It was a dark and limited brutalist 1970s centre cutting across historic city streets which different owners have been trying to improve for 25 years but which suffered because the nearby Victoria Centre was always (a little) more upmarket (John Lewis, Next, House of Fraser) so the sums never added up to do the kind of transformational change that has taken place at Birmingham Bullring, Trinity Leeds, Liverpool One or Bristol’s Cabot Circus.

Most recent owners Intu had begun a limited refurbishment which would have left most of the structural problems intact, so their collapse as a business has given the city council, as the landowners, a real opportunity to rethink the site for a post-Covid world.

I’m sure shopping centres aren’t all finished, but retail will consolidate into the better ones in the bigger cities. The problem for the rest is that shopping centres don’t lend themselves to other uses as easily as traditional shopping streets do.