When your mother blames the woman...

[anxietyaunt]

My mother is... something else. She’s never been much of an advocate for women’s rights. I’ve always known this so I shouldn’t be affected by some of her comments, but I am.

Despite being a smart woman and (allegedly) knowing the statistics around domestic violence against women, she can’t help herself. She thinks courts are unfairly biased towards women. That women should “stop carrying on” and sort things out themselves. “Deal with it.” “Stop making things up and ruining lives.”

This woman raised me. Sorry, not sure what my AIBU is, but I’m so incredible saddened by it all.

@AgnesNaismith

Same here, it’s always the woman. She also constantly comments on the appearance of women on tv.

I think internalised misogyny really hit that generation hard.

Definitely. I was also agreeing with AF's post about 'what women wear being to blame...'. My mum thinks just the same, very male-centric yet loves the women in her life dearly. Very odd juxtaposition.

For balance my mum, aged 75, became a radical feminist in the 80s. Greenham Common, Women Against Pornography, and she was instrumental in setting up Women's Aid in her city before such a thing existed.

Well, it's good to see this thread because at least I'm not alone.

My entire family - all of them - say that "women should have a sense of humour" when it comes to things like catcalling. Not only that but the answer to women's angst on such things is, apparently "a good shag" because "that'll sort her out".

I've also been told that I should be grateful for male attention, no matter how unwanted/aggressive/threatening because "He fancies you!"

Any criticism of this point of view is just "It's how it is". The misogyny in my family, particularly from my mother (don't even get me started on how my brothers got meals made for them on arriving home, whereas I was left to make my own if I wanted food, never mind how it just wasn't important for me to have a 'proper job' because I should just have got married like 'proper women' do) is excruciating.

My mother-when I was a teenager going through the short skirt and tight tops stage
‘It’s your own fault if you get raped’
No mother-men can control themselves

When I was attacked in the street (warm summer night,about 6pm so was broad daylight)
‘Your own fault for going out at night’

I went no contact years ago but she found out I’d been raped
‘Well!it’s her own fault for wearing a short skirt!’ (I’d worn jeans,Ugg’s and a jumper)
‘It’s her own fault for going in his house!’
(He’d been a friend-I’d been in his house Christ knows how many times)
‘What did she expect?she puts it out anyway-whats one more?’
Er,no I never have and even if I’d shagged him before (I hadn’t),it doesn’t mean I said yes that time-I clearly said no

My whole family firmly believe that women are ‘programmed to work the washing machine and should be grateful they are allowed to pick up after men’ also ‘women are only fit for breeding-then it’s their job to raise the kids they got themselves pregnant with’ ‘there is no place on this earth for women drivers-men should drive them’ and ‘no point educating girls-it’s a waste of money’ (they almost melted when I went back to college-I passed every single exam through my own hard work-they told everyone it’s cos I’d given my tutors blow jobs every fortnight)

Don’t get them started on working women who have careers-anything above working for pin money is disgusting

Apart from my mother,who works full time,worked when we where growing up,blames my father for getting her pregnant with 4 of us (last two twins) and drives like a looney-my dad doesn’t drive and she did a part time course to get some qualifications for her job

Of course that’s different…

My DM who is a lovely enlightened woman who wants equality for everyone has told me and my sister from a young age that once a man is aroused he can't stop so it's best not to lead them on.
This raised a lot of eyebrows from us and we'd often tell her she is wrong as any man who is respectful will stop when told to do so etc, but she says it biologically not possible for them to stop. Such nonsense
She only 55 too. My dgm was born in 1940s Germany so saw some pretty bad things and horrific sexism and domestic abuse from her husband so I imagine my mother's views stem from this era

Stop hating on the women who raised you. Start trying to understand.

I don't hate my mother. I am trying to understand why she appears to hate other women and blame them for the violence inflicted on them by men. It's a thread about mothers, on a site for mothers. We could also discuss male attitudes but what is interesting about this is trying to understand why women collude in the patriarchy.

I get why my dad does - it is to his advantage to think men are superior and to think that male violence comes about because of the way women act. What I'm finding interesting is why it is this narrative also suits some women. I think much of it is self preservation. Go along with the power lines, appease the beast, take the blame on yourself and hope that thereby you gain some control, when it's that very control you are sorely lacking.

It is not “women bashing” to call out misogyny when you see it

Just because a woman says or thinks something does not make it ok. That is not my feminism.

This is what I don’t get! What was my mother doing while women were breaking new ground?!

Virginia Stephen, later Woolf's mother Julia was actively involved with the anti-suffrage campaign. Anti-suffrage. Why would any woman possibly take that stance? To oppose one's own entitlement to autonomous citizenship and a political view defies logic altogether as far as I'm concerned.

No wonder Woolf wanted to murder the angel in the house. I'm of the same way of thinking, and am sorry to say I don't think she's dead yet. It's not a misogynistic observation to say that some of the worst enemies of women's emancipation are other women. Not even content with their own subjugation to the patriarchy, they are ardent in their efforts to yoke every other woman to it as well.

Affiliation with the system that's kept you oppressed since time immemorial, and made you vulnerable to abuse, sexual and monetary exploitation and even murder by the other sex, is not going to rescue women from the harshness of that same system. It's an attitude I will never understand.

But it's very depressing to see how little has changed over the course of a whole century. Some opportunities have changed, but a great many attitudes haven't.

As things began to change, some in my Mum’s generation got the worst of all worlds. Full time job, did all the housework and nearly all child things. Yet Dad was the boss and Mum subservient. It has taken me a long time to understand why she tolerated this and never asserted herself. Sadly on Mumsnet we still see women fighting the same attitudes with some men. It must be up to us all to bring up children so that this finally dies . It has gone on way too long

@Babdoc

I’m 65. I was a radical feminist back in the 1970’s, and none of my contemporaries at uni would agree with the ghastly misogynistic views of PPs mothers and MILs! I was a hospital doctor for 36 years and raised my DDs on firm feminist principles. Please don’t condemn my whole generation - we fought some awesome fights for equal pay, refuges, access to male only jobs, paid maternity leave etc.

Thank You.

@anxietyaunt she is as entitled to her opinion as you are . It's just something you are going to have to avoid talking about .

I think some older women were just conditioned that DV was just 'one of those things' you put up with, like being catcalled or felt up by dodgy blokes and think seeing as they were expected to just take it, women that speak up are 'making a fuss'.

Some of it is appeasement (its not me, its all those others who spoil it for everyone) some of it is 'do it to Julia', and some of it is the crab bucket, also known as tall-poppy syndrome, or envy.

''Anyone as experienced in handling seafood as Ms Pushpram knows that no lid is necessary on a bucket of crabs. If one tries to climb out, the others will pull it back.''

• Terry Pratchett

*Not even content with their own subjugation to the patriarchy, they are ardent in their efforts to yoke every other woman to it as well.

Affiliation with the system that's kept you oppressed since time immemorial, and made you vulnerable to abuse, sexual and monetary exploitation and even murder by the other sex, is not going to rescue women from the harshness of that same system. *

Absolutely! And I am supposed to be grateful for that?

I once had a really creepy note left on my car in a car park. It mentioned what I was wearing and was very sexual. My mum’s response was that I shouldn’t bother reporting it to the police as it was just some man who found me attractive - like it should be taken as a compliment

It’s hard to deal with things like that. Thankfully I’ve never been a victim of sexual assault as I wouldn’t feel I could tell my mum.

My mum very much believed that a woman need a man in her life in order to be happy (because she could not imagine life without my dad, for very good reasons), but other than that she raised my sister and me to be independent, was never a rape or abuse apologist and supported my aunt through her divorce from her cheating husband. She was also always open to learning - when she watched me parent my DDs (i.e. without hitting them) she told me she wished she'd done it that way. I'm Gen X and my DDs are Gen Z - they are both ardent feminists because I've raised them that way.

It's sad to hear so many older women aren't open to the positive changes that have happened in the world.

As a 12 year a drunken man had me pinned againt a wall a a neighbours New Year party, groping and grinding me.
I was frozen with fear. I told my mother- also at the party in a different room. She told me to forget about it- " no one wants to spoil a party",

I see my grandmother (80) in a lot of what is described here, compounded by religious batshittery about men being the head of the household.

However, this thread has given me renewed respect for my DM (approaching 60) and her example, even though our personalities often clash.

I grew up seeing my DM learn to replace plumbing, unblock drains, repair the industrial machinery DPs business relied on, as she couldn’t afford to “get a man in”. At some point in my childhood DPs swapped how their business was configured so DF was the one working from home and he took on the majority of the cooking, laundry, school runs, I don’t recall it even being remarked on.

I see that my DM has a lot of insecurities passed down from her mother about women’s worth being tied up in appearance, and she has always tried to check herself when these views have spilled out directed at me.

Quite a useful thread to take stock of how far we have come in a few generations.

BeastOfBODMAS

It needs a brave woman to decide to break the cycle.
I did it for my children. My sister has been unable to, and it has fallen to her daughters to rise to the challenge.

I'm so glad that my mum isn't like some of the mothers on this thread! She is 79, worked full time until she retired and definitely thinks of herself as equal to my dad and me as equal to my DH. My parents raised both me and my brother to be feminists and proud of it!

Not quite as extreme but my mum is in her 50’s and I always grew up thinking I was inferior to my brothers.

When I was talking about some of my work patterns, she asked if my Dh would be okay with doing the childcare on a Saturday.

Men have basically treated her badly her whole life I think she thinks that I deserve the same.

My brothers were always the ‘smart ones’ she never ever praised me for passing an exams. I got better grades than one of my brothers! One of them is an abusive alcoholic but she still won’t say a bad thing about him.

Whereas for me it’s constant negative comments (not to mention the odd fat shaming) even though my life has turned out to be pretty successful so far!

When I told her I was having girl/ boy twins the first thing she said is ‘oh we’re getting a boy then!’.

Stop hating on the women who raised you. Start trying to understand.

I do understand where those viewpoints. I understand that the viewpoints are ingrained over generations, and perpetuated by those who benefit from them. I understand that meting out the same behaviour to others is a way of excusing and finding a way to live with the things that happened you - after all, if you're doing it and you don't deem yourself a bad person, then the thing must be OK, mustn't it? I understand that for some it must be hard to see later generations having a better time of things, and the resentment that can cause.

I can understand all of that and still disagree with the viewpoints being maintained and used as a metaphorical stick with which to beat today's women.

@PreachyGreen

Maybe there is something personal to it.

I know someone who says people are all snowflakes now and people shouldn't be so sensitive about words. As a child his brother said awful things to him. I think he can't accept his brother was emotionally abusive so he says all verbal abuse isn't serious.

Maybe it's all about one specific case that she can't make sense of. I think when people keep returning to a topic with someone who doesn't agree with them, there's usally something unresolved for them. They can't look at it straight on but they can't let it drop either.

I agree with this. To acknowledge how damaging misogyny is would mean acknowledging she might have been damaged by it. If her internal defence mechanisms are based on how strong and resilient she is it would be threatening to her to acknowledge that damage.

My own mum has some attitudes I find horrific. An example is that she is vehemently against organ donation and also any form of famine relief. She thinks organ failure and famine are forms of population control and we shouldn't interfere with these natural events. However blood donation is a good thing! I no longer argue with her. I ask her to stop talking about it. I sometimes remind her that when she dies she will have no control over whether or not I donate her organs. If she carries on I leave the room.

Unfortunately my mother was part of the anti-her own sex mindset. I think it came from her family of origin. Men were seen as superior and special. Women subservient and made to care after others. I can remember her dragging me to the sink to do the washing up and telling me my brother didn't have to because he was a 'boy. No logic. No insight. Hence I ended up doing the housework, cooking dinner and looking after my younger sister whilst he enjoyed total freedom to do as he pleased. My nan, who was a bit of a hypochondriac, demanded care and sympathy from her female grandchildren but would roll out the red carpet and make special dinners if my brother turned up which was infrequent. It didn't occur to either of them to think any different. The same with racism and homophobia.

Yep, my mother is just like this.

I'm in a LDR, every time she asks when my partner is coming up to see me, when I tell her she always says "Be nice to him"...I'm 52 and she's 79...

Anytime my brother does something she doesn't like (which is 99% of the time) she blames my SIL...

She has chronic jealousy of other women, particularly women who have been more 'successful' in their careers/relationships (which compared to my mother, is 99% of women). My late MIL ( who was a year older than my mother) was a very successful secondary school teacher during the time I was married to my ex H...my mother was insanely jealous of the material advantages it gave her and FIL, and was hence very bitchy about her - she used to ascribe it all to my MIL being 'lucky', ignoring the fact she studied and worked hard for 10 years to become a qualified teacher. It only stopped when MIL was diagnosed with terminal cancer at 67...I did actually say to my mother when I told her 'she's not so lucky now, is she?'

@Latelatelate

My Grandmothers did not believe that women should go out to work, earn money, drive or fix anything. It was the man’s job.They had 15-20 years of being SAHMs and it suited them to remain so long long after their DC left home.

My mother was SAHM for 20 years until my father left her. She fully expected to be SAHM for the rest of her life. That was 30 years ago and she's still very bitter and angry that she isn't.