to think most people will work till they're dead and won't see retirement age?

[tugging]

Ok massive generalisation but I see a lot of people talking about how they're 40 or so and have 20 + years before they retire.

As a society, we're more sicker, more stressed and more busier than ever. These things would shorten your life expectancy. I can't imagine working till I'm nearly 70- I'm not even 40 and I'm already knackered! I think I'll be dead before I reach retirement age. I know so many people who have died before 60. They never got to retire and enjoy a work free life.

I know people can retire earlier but not many people have a decent pension that i know of and are forced to work till they're nearly 70 or till ill health.

Answer the question, then. Where do you think the money should have come from? The hundreds of billions required to maintain a relatively low state retirement age and to pay higher pensions.

Don’t just say ‘North Sea oil’ because the tax revenues from that were spent on public services. Which of those do you think should have been cut?

Incidentally, state pensions are supplemented by benefits so you can’t compare pensions in isolation. Plus, how would you like to pay Norwegian levels of income tax and pay Norwegian prices for eg wine? We can’t just decide to pay Norwegian style pensions without fundamentally changing quite a few other things at the same time.

@Iamthewombat

Answer the question, then. Where do you think the money should have come from? The hundreds of billions required to maintain a relatively low state retirement age and to pay higher pensions.

Don’t just say ‘North Sea oil’ because the tax revenues from that were spent on public services. Which of those do you think should have been cut?

Incidentally, state pensions are supplemented by benefits so you can’t compare pensions in isolation. Plus, how would you like to pay Norwegian levels of income tax and pay Norwegian prices for eg wine? We can’t just decide to pay Norwegian style pensions without fundamentally changing quite a few other things at the same time.

The addition revenues from that shouls have been invested to create a permanent fund, the profits from which would benefit UK citizens in perpetuity, rather than squandered as tax cuts to feather nests in the short term. Basically our Government used one of our major national resources that was a one-off irreplasable source of wealth to spaff monez at a generation that was already the luckiest that ever lived. And now tells us they can't afford us to retire on one of the worst state pensions in Europe until we're almost 70.

The hundreds of billions required

Did you read up about what Norway did? Their national investment fund for collective benefit off the back of North Sea oil is one of the biggest investment funds in the world now.

The world doesn't owe anyone "retirement." Everyone needs to earn his/her keep as long as possible. Ffs.

Yes indeed. But what won't be acceptable is paying "national insurance" throughout working life and being told 30+ years will mean a "full state pension" that'll be upgraded with at least inflation and then somebody trying to revoke it and saying it won't be paid after the contributions have been made...

That's the problem when you set up a ponzi scheme like this one in the UK.

@Iamthewombat

Answer the question, then. Where do you think the money should have come from? The hundreds of billions required to maintain a relatively low state retirement age and to pay higher pensions.

Don’t just say ‘North Sea oil’ because the tax revenues from that were spent on public services. Which of those do you think should have been cut?

Incidentally, state pensions are supplemented by benefits so you can’t compare pensions in isolation. Plus, how would you like to pay Norwegian levels of income tax and pay Norwegian prices for eg wine? We can’t just decide to pay Norwegian style pensions without fundamentally changing quite a few other things at the same time.

Their economic model is different to ours but that's totally separate from the point about the investment fund. This was additional, unexpected money for Norway and the UK. They used theirs to provide sustainable, long-term financial security for their citizens which still grows year on year.

Our Government used it to bribe people to vote for them and plug holes in a mismanaged economy so they could make tax cuts and deal with economic fallout from chronic mismanagement over decades. Much like PFI later. Pull the wool over people's eyes, rely on them not understand

*understanding what you're up to. Dishonest. Liars. Short-termists out for themselves with no vision or care for their country. All of them. I'm astonished this isn't obvious to everyone.

Interesting thread. And quite sobering in some ways. I taught in the state system for 5.5 years and have TP for that time. I've had 5 years out of state now where 1 private school contributed to a private pension. I left the school and have been overseas so have paid a bit into that during my time overseas. It is now a total of 15k so nothing much!
I rejoin the state system in September and will teach for as long as I can hack it so I can plump up my teachers pension. I am 35 and can well imagine that whatever state pension I might get (if I live that long!) will be worth tuppence. I'm doing what I can and try not to stress too hard because who knows how long I've got.
The thought of another 30 years teaching feels unrealistic and stressful and tiring but my DM did it until 63 so I guess I can too if I dont get managed out for being old...
I sort of wish I hadn't left the state sector as I have that big gap in my TP but I have enjoyed my life, lived abroad, brought up my DC in that time so it's not all bad, life has to be for living too.

I started paying into a workplace pension quite late (aged 30), and the projected income doesn’t look great at the moment (£5k pa).

I can afford to overpay but the temptation to keep saving money is stronger. Does anyone know if it’s better to overpay on mortgage or pay extra into a pension?

@Cassilis

I started paying into a workplace pension quite late (aged 30), and the projected income doesn’t look great at the moment (£5k pa).

I can afford to overpay but the temptation to keep saving money is stronger. Does anyone know if it’s better to overpay on mortgage or pay extra into a pension?

Definitely the pension. You get tax relief on it, an employer's contribution, and another 30 odd years of share growth. It's money in the early years that has the greatest effect.

Interest rates have never been lower and are comparatively cheap so there is less incentive to overpay a mortgage.

Amazing, thanks @lidoshuffle

That’s spurred me on to make the change online today.

The addition revenues from that shouls have been invested to create a permanent fund, the profits from which would benefit UK citizens in perpetuity, rather than squandered as tax cuts to feather nests in the short term. Basically our Government used one of our major national resources that was a one-off irreplasable source of wealth to spaff monez at a generation that was already the luckiest that ever lived. And now tells us they can't afford us to retire on one of the worst state pensions in Europe until we're almost 70

You are deluded if you think that all the North Sea oil money was used to deliver tax cuts and “feather nests”. The repeated use of the phrase “ponzi scheme” suggests that you aren’t approaching this topic entirely rationally.

Also, has it occurred to you that even if Britain had set aside all of the North Sea revenues for your chosen purpose, providing generous pension benefits for your citizens is rather easier when you have 5 million people, like Norway, rather than 66 million people, like Britain?

what won't be acceptable is paying "national insurance" throughout working life and being told 30+ years will mean a "full state pension" that'll be upgraded with at least inflation and then somebody trying to revoke it and saying it won't be paid after the contributions have been made...

Aha! It all becomes clear. I suspect that you are in the ‘Back to 60’ WASPI camp. In which case, I won’t expect a reasoned argument.

@PerveenMistry

The world doesn't owe anyone "retirement." Everyone needs to earn his/her keep as long as possible. Ffs.

Do explain your, ahem, thinking.

@BellaTheDog

I am not entitled to a state pension, don’t own my own house and have no savings. So yes, I’ll definitely be working until I drop.

Why aren't you entitled to a state pension?

its a worry i paid into NHS pension but they changed it & now i won't retire at 60 but 67 ! its big difference !

its a worry i paid into NHS pension but they changed it & now i won't retire at 60 but 67 ! its big difference !

How old are you? I'm late 30s and my pension age is 68.

Would you rather work for a few years longer or lose the NHS defined benefit pension in favour of a money purchase scheme? I know which I’d choose.

Yes, we’d all like to retire at 60 on a generous index-linked guaranteed pension but it’s not going to happen, is it? It’s unaffordable. When Ros Altmann sponsored the bill raising retirement age for public sector schemes to state retirement age, she knew what she was doing.

Apart from the affordability problem - because we’re living longer, on average - it would be unfair for lower paid people who don’t have access to those public sector pension schemes to have to fund, though taxation, a group of people who do to retire seven years earlier than them.

I say this as somebody with a preserved public sector pension that will pay £19k a year at today’s rates, so I’d sooner have that at 60 than at my current state pension age of 67, but I can see that raising the age at which I can draw down that pension is objectively the right thing to do.

I intend to work till i drop. I have paid into a private pension but it won't be enough. Had kids as a teenager got married. Have always worked low paid jobs. Second husband was ill for years and i was only breadwinner.he shafted me completely but having my sanity getting away from him was worth it. He got the house when we divorced cos of his ill health. I have 20 years left but the financial situation hasn't improved brilliantly. And now the question is how much do you put into a pension or should i put some into savings as i just don't see a retirement happening.
1 set of grandparents had 25 years of retirement together in relatively good health. Father died of a 'rare' hereditary blood cancer last year age 71! So rare my mother has the same one she is 73. No inheritance to come as father left it to siblings and mother hasn't a bean but they both finished work at 50.
I aren't going to stress about it will just do what i can as that is how i have always lived.
If things are impossible to live with if i get to retire i would join the number of oldies who have thrown themselves off a cliff (not being flippant). My friend scrimped all her life and has just died age 55 of cancer reaping nothing of what she has sown. I have seen too many die without claiming state pension to really worry about i don't mean that to be burying my head in the sand just getting through every day life is a struggle at the moment.
I can't see that my employer will want me to still be looking after them when i'm nearing 70 though!

You're either a planner or more "live in the moment". Some people can be planners but lack funds to really fulfil their plans, some people have rakes of cash but still live in the moment. Look at all the celebs who've gone bankrupt!

The societal issue is when those live in the moment people live a long time and have no money set aside for it. Does that mean we should all become planners? I suppose some would argue yes.

I'm more of a live in the moment person. I had a really rough childhood, spent my 20's and a chunk of my 30's with no spare cash. Now I have a bit more money I'm going to enjoy it! Not sit here doing nothing but squirreling away cash for a retirement that might not come. Is that selfish of me? Quite possibly. But it's my life and I'm going to enjoy at least some of it while I know I can. I don't have the money to pump £££ into a pension and do the things I want to do now. So if I'm going to have years where I don't go away anywhere or buy the things I want then I'll take those years later when I'll either have already died, or be in ill health, or just old! At least I'll have fantastic memories. To me personally, that's the more logical thing to do in my situation.

The ideal of course would have been to start saving young, get a highly paid career etc. But that didn't happen so I work with where I am currently.

Maybe there should be some provision for the state pension to be paid early to those with a terminal illness? Not helpful in cases of sudden death, except perhaps a lump sum to their next of kin based on contribution record? Can't see the Tories going for that!

If public sector pension ages are raised in line with state pension, the problem there is that people are trapped with no income if they are not working for a few years before pension age. This problem would get worse as state pension age is raised if employers' still practise age discrimination - what would those people made redundant do for income to fill the gap?

Also, younger people might opt out and not see the point of paying into a workplace pension they can't have at all till 75. Why should it be all or nothing? Why not offer flexible retirement and gradual downshifting in working hours and gradual top-up from the pension as a transition from age 55 or 60?

Maybe there should be some provision for the state pension to be paid early to those with a terminal illness? Not helpful in cases of sudden death, except perhaps a lump sum to their next of kin based on contribution record? Can't see the Tories going for that!

In the US if a spouse dies before collecting their social security pension the surviving spouse gets it, on top of their own. Anything further would destroy the actuarial basis of the system. It's designed on the basis that some won't collect their full benefit, or will die after only a short time collecting benefits. In the US, the whole thing is structured as insurance, not an individual account holding money that is specifically "yours".

They've also raised the full retirement age here. For me it's now 66.5 years. You can collect as early as 62, losing 8% for every year you claim before full retirement age. If you postpone taking benefits, the amount you collect rises by 8% for every year you hold off. That works up to age 70, then no further increases are given if you don't claim benefits. Only about 6% of people wait until age 70 to claim.

Also, younger people might opt out and not see the point of paying into a workplace pension they can't have at all till 75. Why should it be all or nothing? Why not offer flexible retirement and gradual downshifting in working hours and gradual top-up from the pension as a transition from age 55 or 60?

You can do this already. You are conflating the state pension, and public sector occupational pensions linked to it, with private pensions and pensions offered by non-public sector employers.

Right now, if you open a SIPP or another type of private pension, you can start to draw down from the age of 55, although that might increase a bit.

There are very few workplace defined benefit schemes left, outside of the public sector, but quite a few schemes offered by private sector employers allow you to retire before state pension age. You take the financial risk though.

So it is perfectly possible to combine being a member of a scheme linked to state pension age with private pension savings that you can draw down earlier, or with pension savings from a separate employment. If you decide that the benefits of a public sector DB scheme don’t justify the longer wait to access them, you can leave and join a private sector employer with a money purchase scheme instead. Less generous but you get your money sooner.

I retired at 60. Then went back as a consultant 2 days a week until I was 65. There is no way on earth I could could do the job now I am 70. My job was very demanding as a Catering Manager over a number of sites. On my feet 12 hours a day.
It made me realise I was old when I helped my friend to do a big spring clean last week (she is a hoarder) I was knackered.