Photo ID needed to vote? Please no.

[flashbac]

The government are bringing in (photo) voter ID meaning you'll need to show your passport or driving licence when going to cast your vote.

By all means reform the postal voting system but not this. Not everyone drives or goes abroad and this will bar many people from voting. Driving licences and passports are not cheap.

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/10/queens-speech-photo-id-future-elections-social-care?

I live in one of the pilot areas for this a few years ago and it worked really well. For those that don't have existing photo id they were able to go to the local council office with other documents that were verified and then they were given photo id that was acceptable to be used to vote (I don't think there was a cost for this).

It was advertised for a long time prior to this in the local area (Council website, magazine, paper, social media sites, posters, voting cards etc).

I'm really in favour of this as currently all you have to do vote is say a name & address. Very open to electoral fraud.

I hope they bring this in quickly to make our elections more secure.

To be honest, it amazes me every time there is an election how easy it would be to rock up and pretend to be someone else - you can see the list of who hasn't voted from around you when they cross off your name, you don't even need to take your card with you.

A pp said I've run elections on behalf of local government before - I was in charge of a busy department for about 20 years.
In all that time we had... ZERO cases of voter fraud, ZERO allegations, and I know of only a handful across the country. but the point is, you'd never know, would you ?
My ds worked in a polling station last year, and his partner has done in this one just gone, and they have both said there is no way they would have remembered someone if they came back later in the day dressed differently (unless they were REALLY unusual looking - like 7' tall with dyed pink hair or something) - there are just too many people that filter through during the day. It would be easy to vote a couple of times, 3 maybe, at a push. Not that I think it would make that much difference in most elections.

But equally, every time I postal vote, I think they have no idea if that is my vote or not.

As for those saying younger people might not be able to afford ID. I disagree with that. People under 30 get ID'd everywhere they go. My younger relations are stunned at the concept that I commonly go out and about without any photo ID on me.
I do agree it would be a lot simpler if there were an agreed photo ID card - £10 or £15 or something to cover the cost for something that lasts 10 years until you have to renew your photo isn't really beyond the means of most people.

No that I think election fraud is rife, nor the hook to hang the introduction of ID cards on to.

There needs to be some other way of verifying voter's identity with a photo ID then. An ID card is by far the most sensible option and I really don't understand the objection to them. It makes everything so much more difficult.

Young people can get photo ID to show they are over 18 even if they don't have a passport of a driving licence. I see no reason why voter's can't get the same sort of thing. Election fraud is a real problem in certain constituencies.

More difficult when we don't have ID cards, I mean. Especially with things like the NHS and the benefits system, fraud is rife.

Really shows the level of poverty in the UK if you have people who can't afford photo ID.

Because we don’t exist only with the permission of the government. We don’t have to prove that we are allowed to walk down the road. It’s so fundamental to not being subject to totalitarianism.

You'll change your tune if you or someone you care about ever gets their identity or rights challenged by the state. Throwaway your passport and your driving licence (neither of which are free). Now how do you prove who you are or that you're entitled to legally walk down a street in the UK?

And before you say it doesn't happen, you just need to consider Windrush, and Settled Status. It has happened and it is happening right now. Just not to you or anyone you care about. Yet.

(The only way this should be allowed is if everyone over 18 is automatically issued with a free voter ID card, for which updates and replacements are also free, and if there is a massive drive to reach out to ensure people are given this* I agree,

But that won't happen, because this is about voter suppression and not election fraud. Completely disagree and I can't imagine what makes you think this. If this week has shown us anything it's that you can't assume to know who people will vote for based on social and economic stereotyping.

Neither DH or I drive or have a passport. Can't afford a car or a foreign holiday, so what would be the point.

@shivawn

Really shows the level of poverty in the UK if you have people who can't afford photo ID.

If you don't need to or can't afford to drive. Because you can't afford a foreign holiday, or maybe you choose not to take one.

It's not just about absolute poverty, it's also that neither form of official photo ID is essential to everyone. Most people could live without both reasonably well.

@shivawn

Really shows the level of poverty in the UK if you have people who can't afford photo ID.

When the cost of a passport is the same as a whole week's income if you're on UC, you can see why getting one isn't really a priority for many people.

At the moment anyone in Great Britain can vote, I’ve only been a citizen for four years, but I have voted for far longer than that.

Even if we had voter ID it doesn’t prove you have the right to vote, I could have taken my driving license or bought a citizen card for £15. None of those things relate to citizenship in the UK.

Can someone please explain to me why the British are so averse to ID cards?

I was opposed to it last time it was suggested, because it wasn't just about ID cards. The database behind the ID cards was going to have all sorts of sensitive stuff on it too, like your medical records and employment history. And the number of people who could access that record was long. I wasn't opposed to an ID card at all, but I was opposed to the database holding so much other information that was unnecessary for simple ID verification. And knowing how government IT projects normally turn out (I worked in a government department that commissioned a major one), it would be bound to go wrong, be insecure and be a target for hackers/fraud.

I just googled this to aid my sketchy memory. Apparently the Information Commissioner at the time raised "substantial data protection and personal privacy concerns. He sought clarification of why so much personal information needed to be kept as part of establishing an individual's identity and indicated concern about the wide range of bodies who would view the records of services individuals have used." There was also concern about 'feature creep', with even more info being stored/accessed, even linking up high street shops to police databases.

I think many at the time would have been happy with a basic ID card. It was all this other information about you being linked to your biometric data and accessible by an estimated 50k organisations that was the problem. And it made the database a 'one stop shop' for hackers/fraudsters.

I would have the same opinion again. I would support an ID card, including for voter ID, if it was free and if it only contained the information needed to verify your identity. But I don't want to be on a database that contains a vast amount of personal and sensitive information, that tracks my routine interactions, and is accessible by hundreds of thousands of people. Which is effectively what was proposed last time.

And those saying this isn't about voter suppression- perhaps it isn't, but I'd be amazed if a conservative party donor didn't own an ID card company or similar suddenly step in
This has appeared in the Queen's speech for a reason. Follow the money...

It's utterly pointless. It's just incurring a lot of expense to resolve a minuscule problem - and it's not as if it will resolve it, either, I suspect it would be relatively easy for a determined fraudster to get a forged licence or ID card that would pass muster in a busy polling station.

Can someone please explain to me why the British are so averse to ID cards?

Honestly, I don't get it either. We've already gone SO far down the road of Big Brother knowing our every move that why we wouldn't just give in to them and make everyone's lives easier, I cannot imagine.

I wish we could just log in to our government gateway account and vote from there. Then watch directly on the TV in real-time as people vote as it would automatically be counted.
To have a government gateway account is a rigmarole in itself but once you have it, it's pretty secure although I can imagine there would be other things to increase security

My parents stopped driving when they no longer needed to and therefore never got photo driving licences, and also let their passports lapse because they had no intention of travelling. However, they were absolutely compos mentis and able to exercise their right to vote. Should they have been deprived of the right to do so, or waste money on a passport or licence they had no need for?

@Serpenta

Voter fraud in the UK is almost non-existent. This is just the Tories copying from the Republican's Big Book of Voter Suppression.

This is the correct and most succinct answer.

No further reading required.

Surely most people over the age of 18 have to have some form of ID to get jobs/ prove they are eligible to work in the UK or to buy alcohol/ cigarettes/ lottery tickets? It will be a rare 18 - 25 year old that doesn't have some form of photo ID on them most of the time.

Working with older people I often have huge problems with them not having enough photo ID to e.g. apply for bus passes or prove who they are at the bank. Many only have the old paper style driving license and don't have a passport.

I don't doubt that it will suppress votes, but I think that will be across all age groups.

I used to work in a polling station many years ago hence why I do mail in voting because you cannot physically leave the polling station you are assigned to and it is never your own polling station. So in order to vote ourselves we had to do mail in voting.

I don't know how strict people were at other polling stations but basically if you turn up with your polling card we had to say "to confirm you are John Smith of 14 Pleasant Avenue" and they would have to say yes. We did get people questioning it but it was pointed out that later in the day we could get another person without the polling card claiming to be John Smith.

If someone showed up without a polling card we would ask for any other ID, if none then we would put an asterix next to their name on our list. We would write on their ballot number onto their voting slip anyway on all of them. If there was any issue later with a polling card in hand John Smith we could I assume pull the ballot paper of the imposter during the count.

No one gives a flying fuck who you vote for, we had 1500 registered voters at our station. Some took issue with us writing the voter's number on the slip but if you have ever seen a count no one is looking at the numbers, just pilling votes into piles.

In all the years I did this job we never had anyone claim someone had voted with their card etc.

@DogInATent

Because we don’t exist only with the permission of the government. We don’t have to prove that we are allowed to walk down the road. It’s so fundamental to not being subject to totalitarianism.

You'll change your tune if you or someone you care about ever gets their identity or rights challenged by the state. Throwaway your passport and your driving licence (neither of which are free). Now how do you prove who you are or that you're entitled to legally walk down a street in the UK?

And before you say it doesn't happen, you just need to consider Windrush, and Settled Status. It has happened and it is happening right now. Just not to you or anyone you care about. Yet.

Yup. Luckily the SS is now at least giving physical cards to no EEA spouses (thank you poster who once alerted me to it!). Now we would like something too🙈

That would make it 4 state issued photo ids for me lol (though I am not sure that can be used as a proper id)

The only way this should be allowed is if everyone over 18 is automatically issued with a free voter ID card, for which updates and replacements are also free, and if there is a massive drive to reach out to ensure people are given this.

This! I have a blind grandparent who, for obvious reasons, does not hold a drivers license. Grandparent is in late 80s and in no fit state to travel. So now they will have to buy a passport solely for the purpose of voting? Grandparent doesn't have much spare cash as they haven't been able to work due to their sight loss so rely on their State Pension with no occupational pension.

it would be ok if photo id were cheap and accessible.
but passports and driving licences are a lot more expensive than the tenner an id costs in many european countries...

According to the Guardian: "The government has previously said people would be able to apply for a voting ID card from their local council."
www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/10/queens-speech-photo-id-future-elections-social-care

If this works in practice and those that do not have other photo ID are able to easily access these cards, then I'm not against.

We've already gone SO far down the road of Big Brother knowing our every move that why we wouldn't just give in to them and make everyone's lives easier

Because ID cards extend the "big brother" to any doorman, company or similar to use the ID cards and demand proof of identity, so even if you are completely happy with "big brother", the opportunity given to other individuals to abuse and harass individuals is gained too.