Photo ID needed to vote? Please no.

[flashbac]

The government are bringing in (photo) voter ID meaning you'll need to show your passport or driving licence when going to cast your vote.

By all means reform the postal voting system but not this. Not everyone drives or goes abroad and this will bar many people from voting. Driving licences and passports are not cheap.

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/10/queens-speech-photo-id-future-elections-social-care?

When I came back to theUK to live after living overseas & travelling, I couldn't believe you didn't have to prove you, were you, when you voted!!

It's become normal for me now, of course, and it does seem like the U.K. has a low (if any) voter fraud problem, so I don't think it's necessary. I think we have other issues which the time/resources would be better spent looking at!!

@DogInATent

Well it proves I was born in England. Not sure what more of a right there can be than that. But how do I know it's yours?

For that matter, how do you know that's your birth certificate? What if you're not who you think you are, how would you even know. Are you sure you're not an imposter?

That's actually a good point👀

If the free card as in Northern Ireland was available, then there is no barrier it seems. However, the motive is not to avoid the isolated cases of voter fraud, but to hope to make it more difficult for some groups of people to vote. A lower percentage of women have a driving licence than men (though the gap has narrowed), would not surprise me if the same is true for some ethnicities.

Many people do things last minute and so I can imagine the free card would not be delivered in time for some people.

Ah, yes the totalitarianism governments in such countries as Poland, France, Belgium, Sweden, the Netherlands...

Ah, yes the totalitarianism government's in such countries as Russia, China, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Belarus, Argentina, Iran, Iraq...

I think issue is less about the id cards and more about the government in power. The tories have been proven time and time again to be nefarious, devious, deceitful and outright corrupt. Any policy they put forward should be treated with extreme caution and thoroughly examined for the real motive.

We should have to prove who we are
And why do we use pencils to vote? I changed to postal vote so I can use a pen

@IEat

We should have to prove who we are And why do we use pencils to vote? I changed to postal vote so I can use a pen

A pencil mark is waterproof, and a pencil is foolproof (doesn't dry out or 'die' like a ballpoint, can be sharpened with a pocket knife, you can tell at a glance when it's running out).

@BlackLambAndGreyFalcoln

According to the Guardian: "The government has previously said people would be able to apply for a voting ID card from their local council." www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/10/queens-speech-photo-id-future-elections-social-care

If this works in practice and those that do not have other photo ID are able to easily access these cards, then I'm not against.

Ease of access isn't the problem, it's motivation.

Its another step that makes it harder for people to turn up on the day and vote, i'm betting the application will require an internet connection or a mobile, the ability to upload documents such as a birth certificate and probably a fixed address, all of these things mean that the same demographic of relatively disadvantaged voters will be less likely to vote.

People should not have to pay to vote.

Impersonation fraud at polling status is vanishingly rare. It's as if what we have here is a solution looking for a problem.

The area where voter fraud does occur is postal votes.

This does nothing whatsoever to tackle that.

And indeed might make it worse, as more people decide to reject the polling station because of the need for ID

Yanbu.

It would be tolerable if they are free. Although it's a huge faff just to stop what I understand is a tiny amount of fraud.

i think issue is less about the id cards and more about the government in power. The tories have been proven time and time again to be nefarious, devious, deceitful and outright corrupt

Agree.

Do remember recent history, that it was the Blair government who attempted to introduce ID cards, and the Tories who ditched it.

Perhaps a fingerprint recognition system is the answer. Or iris recognition like they have at airports. It doesn't stop one person impersonating another but it does stop their vote counting twice. I'm just not sure how feasible or expensive it would be to make those machines mobile and deployed in thousands of places all over the country at the same time.

Or we could go old school like they do in countries where voter fraud is rife. Dip each voters finger in permanent ink that can't be scrubbed off and takes days to fade. Although someone is bound to insist that we are being branded like cattle.

ID cards are the way to go. We should just get on with it.

Straight out the Trump playbook.
I was just thinking about some of my family who have no photo ID. There is:
my elderly DM, a niece, a nephew and 2 cousins. That's from one fairly small family.
I don't mind having a photo ID issued to everyone but I understand Mr Johnson doesn't like that idea. What next? No drinks in the queue to vote? Write to your MPs!

@SunflowersAndLavender

Perhaps a fingerprint recognition system is the answer. Or iris recognition like they have at airports. It doesn't stop one person impersonating another but it does stop their vote counting twice. I'm just not sure how feasible or expensive it would be to make those machines mobile and deployed in thousands of places all over the country at the same time.

Or we could go old school like they do in countries where voter fraud is rife. Dip each voters finger in permanent ink that can't be scrubbed off and takes days to fade. Although someone is bound to insist that we are being branded like cattle.

ID cards are the way to go. We should just get on with it.

What database do you think would be needed to make that workable?

It would mean the biometric capture of every single person in the country. Including this early who do not drive or travel abroad, and the whole population would have to be done before it could be used as the basis for enfranchisement. If you think it would be difficult to issue a photo voter ID card, multiply it many-fold for this.

And if you maintain a principle that people must not pay to vote, then it's a massive new cost. Do you think there is enough money to launch a major new government data base, with distributed secure access to every single polling station?

Prefer the idea of a hand stamp!

Yes, I understand it's expensive and probably not feasible just for elections. but as part of a wider identity scheme it works. ID can be faked but when they are backed up by fingerprint or iris recognition on a government data base they are pretty much bullet proof. I'd like to see it happen eventually and I do think that over time it was pay for itself and then some, one way or another.

The inked finger is pretty bullet proof too though!

I have no photo ID, haven't been abroad in 20 years and no intention to start, never had a driving license and doubt I'll ever be able to afford to learn to drive, I would struggle to find the money to apply for either passport or provisional license so guess that's me out! I've always voted but it has been increasingly difficult to justify voting for any of the useless showers of shit posing as political parties in recent years anyway so maybe it's actually a mercy that I won't have to in future! I was already politically homeless so this is just another step along the path to complete disengagement with politics for me, doesn't seem like much point tbh anymore.

Should be issued free. I have a friend who has never learned to drive; he was in the police and in those days they would teach you if you couldn’t already drive. His sergeant told him the world would be better off all round if he never got behind the wheel again, so he didn’t. He could afford to travel abroad but doesn’t want to. He frequently runs into problems with banks etc as he has no photo ID.

I’m curious about the pp up thread who said they have a driving licence, despite never learning to drive? You can only get a full licence when you have passed your test and a lot of places don’t accept provisionals as ID.

@Serpenta

Voter fraud in the UK is almost non-existent. This is just the Tories copying from the Republican's Big Book of Voter Suppression.

Yes. Absolutely no viable reason for this other than voter suppression.

I don’t understand the objection from some to everyone being issued with a (free) photo ID.
I disagree that people should be able to vote without it.
If I wanted to commit fraud I could quite easily turn up as soon as polling stations open and vote on my friend/colleague’s place for example. I know their name, address, DOB. That’s all they ask for.

I know their name, address, DOB

The odd thing many are scratching thrir head about is that you often just need the first. Then they say the address and ask you if it's yours. That's it.

Again, imho photo id shouldn't just be about voting, but aplso about the fact it can make other things safer and less common (like identity theft and taking out credit for example).

Anything that puts barriers in the way of voting for no justifiable reason should be opposed. This is being done to supress votes, nothing more.

Same in Qatar. ID cards are only an advantage which save time and means we have a vast amount of freedom during Covid and a decent infrastructure. Unlike the UK where you have to fill in paper forms and post them

With all respect U.K. doesn’t know how prevalent voter fraud is because voting is never audited or inspected. The instances of known voter fraud depend entirely on concerned citizens logging allegations of witnessed fraud. This is the least reliable way of discerning voter fraud. For example, no one is checking to see if someone is voting twice, or if someone has the right to vote (most immigrants do not), or if someone is voting once in their name and then again in name of a recently died voter. No one crisschecks PENCILED votes with voter to confirm the ballot was not later altered. No checks or audits are done. So, honestly, UK you have no idea how much voter fraud is actually happening and your system is very vulnerable to the most common forms of fraud.

Most of me says no because, as a pp said, it's making a big deal out of something that's extremely rare and it's a barrier that can lead to voter suppression -- however I also agree with other pp that if it meant we'd finally get universally accepted photo ID that isn't connected to passports or driving then I could possibly see some benefit though still lean no.

Even voter suppression heavy areas of the US has had non-driver state ID through the same place as driver's license for decades, the UK is way behind in this and it's just making things harder as more and more places are requiring a narrow band of photo ID. While there have been things like Citizen Cards for buying and entering places, most places it's passport or driver's license only or you end up with a faff of paperwork and signatures going on.

My 16 year old got caught out when his tutor centre required proof of ID for his assessments - and his choices were passport, driver's license, or to get a bit of paper with photos stuck to it signed by someone of a "suitable profession". It's daft when we see how other countries have handled the ID issues.

The previous backlash was said to be mainly about liberty, not trusting the government with a database (understandable) and protecting vulnerable people -- though there was very little backlash when Biometric Residency Permits became required for non-EU migrants to continue to be allowed to work and access services, even though many of the most vulnerable struggled with the requirements to get it (both expense - £300 a shot including the 'private partners' share and needing to prove continuous residency sometimes for decades which family carers were least likely to have and be left vulnerable). That kinda left a bad taste in my mouth that there was such a huge backlash when it was UK citizens, but few gave a fuck when it was control and make money off of immigrants by taking away rights unless we coughed up paperwork and more money (and that's before getting into now they have expiry dates unlike indefinite leave to remain visas - 2024).

@IEat

We should have to prove who we are And why do we use pencils to vote? I changed to postal vote so I can use a pen

Pencils are used because a) they are less likely to get pinched b) biro/pen may smudge when the paper is folded c) they are cheaper than biros/pens.

@Heatingsystemwoes

I don’t understand the objection from some to everyone being issued with a (free) photo ID. I disagree that people should be able to vote without it. If I wanted to commit fraud I could quite easily turn up as soon as polling stations open and vote on my friend/colleague’s place for example. I know their name, address, DOB. That’s all they ask for.

This is simply a solution for a problem that doesn't exist and probably to give one of Boris's chums money from the public purse.

Lots of young people don't have photo ID and those who vote decide to do so at the last minute, so they won't apply to get a card on time.

The Tories think they aren't stabbing themselves in the foot with this idea but I know with certain issues young people and other groups that don't tend to vote, will actually vote at the last minute and will vote tactically so this means they can vote for a Tory candidate if it suits the political agenda.

Yes you and I can impersonate other people we know particularly if we live in marginal constituencies but we don't like 99.9% of the British population.