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Photo ID needed to vote? Please no.

544 replies

flashbac · 10/05/2021 11:00

The government are bringing in (photo) voter ID meaning you'll need to show your passport or driving licence when going to cast your vote.

By all means reform the postal voting system but not this. Not everyone drives or goes abroad and this will bar many people from voting. Driving licences and passports are not cheap.

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/10/queens-speech-photo-id-future-elections-social-care?

OP posts:
SchrodingersImmigrant · 11/05/2021 19:48

Yes, yes. Everyone else is stupid and lives in totalitarian society. That's why citizens of uk shall not have IDs, ever🤷🏻

SchrodingersImmigrant · 11/05/2021 19:48

Did you jsut bring yellow stars into ID discussion?

Fucking stupid and offensive

SunflowersAndLavender · 11/05/2021 19:51

DynamoKev

Its the same thing - a ridiculous over reaction to something that is a tiny problem.

Maybe. But given that it would solve the problem (however small) of voter fraud, would cost virtually nothing to implement and inconvenience nobody, and would allow people with no photo ID to vote, would you agree with it in principle, or not?

SunflowersAndLavender · 11/05/2021 19:53

I wonder how 'used' Jews got to wearing a yellow star on their clothes?

Wow. Hardly the same thing AT ALL. How crass.

NightoftheLivingBread · 11/05/2021 19:55

@SunflowersAndLavender

DynamoKev

Its the same thing - a ridiculous over reaction to something that is a tiny problem.

Maybe. But given that it would solve the problem (however small) of voter fraud, would cost virtually nothing to implement and inconvenience nobody, and would allow people with no photo ID to vote, would you agree with it in principle, or not?

I agreed with it in principle upthread. I also think this proposal to introduce ID cards for voters is not genuinely motivated by voter fraud.

And?

SunflowersAndLavender · 11/05/2021 19:59

And what? Confused

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

SancerreSunsets · 11/05/2021 20:02

To be a fair concept that truly supports democracy, ID cards would need to be provided to anyone who needed one ... by the government, with public money. This would be expensive to roll out and seems rather a strange priority given that voter fraud is extremely rare in the UK and we're just emerging from a pandemic that severely damaged the economy. It's when you consider these facts that you start to wonder why the gov is focusing on this issue ... and all the reasons that spring to mind are rather unsavory, I'm afraid.

00100001 · 11/05/2021 20:08

@SunflowersAndLavender

However if I was determined to fraudulently vite, it wouldn't take much to get round it. I could vote at 7am, go home, scrub my hand clean and go back to the same polling station,claim I was Sam from next door and take their vote.

The ink doesn't come off for a couple of weeks I think. That's the whole point of it. They use it in places where they don't have official electoral registers to make sure each person only votes once.

So, everyone would know exactly who did and didn't vote?
SunflowersAndLavender · 11/05/2021 20:09

So, everyone would know exactly who did and didn't vote?

Not at all. The ink stamp would only be for people who didn't show photo ID.

00100001 · 11/05/2021 20:14

@SchrodingersImmigrant

*A card with basic info in your hand'. Define 'basic info'.*

Name, DOB, address. We also have nationality on it, which is bit Confused since it's obvious and place of birth. Doesn't have to be same. Some other places have less or different info. Basics

So if you lose your ID card, you could easily have your identity stolen...

It even passports have that much information on it.

Miljea · 11/05/2021 20:16

@SunflowersAndLavender

I wonder how 'used' Jews got to wearing a yellow star on their clothes?

Wow. Hardly the same thing AT ALL. How crass.

You claimed we'd all 'get used' to carrying an ID card with us at all times, akin to carrying car keys.

I think this level of shrugging about the erosion of personal freedoms deserves comparison to 'within our lifetimes' erosions, shall we say, if the odd hard truth hits home too hard.

Certain ideologies, shall we say, also began their onslaught by identifying 'other'.

There is no need for ID cards, anyone who legitimately needs to know who I am can find that out. Via either compelling me to tell- still rather a niche sector; or finding out themselves.

I do not wish to be nor should not be put in a position to being forced to tell. Due to the ease of flashing an ID card they know I'm carrying.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone via mentioning one all too recent 'end result' of people being forced to carry signifiers, but please don't think shutting me down takes away the risk that your ID card won't contain readily readable information about, say, your religion.

1Morewineplease · 11/05/2021 20:16

I needed to move savings from an account into an ISA. This money had previously been in an ISA.
Easy enough.
However, when I tried to do this, I was told that I needed a photo ID ( which I hadn't needed when I originally opened it.)
I told the Building Society that I didn't have a photo driving license nor did I have a current passport.
They wouldn't allow me to do this unless I paid an extortionate amount for a letter from a solicitor.
I told them that I wanted to close the account.
No can do... I need photo ID or an expensive letter from a solicitor.
Grr...

00100001 · 11/05/2021 20:18

@SunflowersAndLavender

So, everyone would know exactly who did and didn't vote?

Not at all. The ink stamp would only be for people who didn't show photo ID.

So why bother with photo ID at all?
RancidOldHag · 11/05/2021 20:21

My passport expired just at the start if the pandemic. Not planning on renewing until some travel might really be in the offing.

I'd apply for a postal vote if they won't take expired passports, as I'm not paying ££ to vote. I've been in the same house since the 1990s, so still have paper driving licence, so not paying for a new one that I don't need for actual drinking.

Now - just remind me - where's the big problem with voter fraud? Impersonation at a polling station, or with postal votes?

SunflowersAndLavender · 11/05/2021 20:21

So why bother with photo ID at all?

Because as someone else pointed out, why would you want the world to be able to tell whether you did or didn't vote by looking at your hand? Refraining from voting is also a right.

00100001 · 11/05/2021 20:32

@SunflowersAndLavender

So why bother with photo ID at all?

Because as someone else pointed out, why would you want the world to be able to tell whether you did or didn't vote by looking at your hand? Refraining from voting is also a right.

My point was, if you can still vite without providing any ID, because they'll ink your finger.... Then why do we need the ID card? The ID card isn't needed to vote in this scenario... So there's literally no point to it, Because I could still claim I was Sam Smith from 1 High Street and be inked. Still voter fraud.

I could also vote with my ID card and then return later and claim to be Sam Smith and ink my finger.... Voter fraud.

The inky finger solution as an alternative to providing ID doesn't prevent voter fraud, and means that ID isn't required at all to ensure 1 person 1 vote.

Confused
NightoftheLivingBread · 11/05/2021 20:33

@SunflowersAndLavender

And what? Confused

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

Well exactly, you tell me. You keep repeatedly asking people if they would agree in principle with the finger ink idea, despite opposing compulsory ID cards.

I said I would.

Do what’s your point?

CorianderBee · 11/05/2021 20:37

Not if you can't get it for free. Voting is a right, not a privilege and so shouldn't be cut off from those who can't afford it.

BiBabbles · 11/05/2021 20:47

That's so frustrating 1Morewineplease, it does seem with more legal requirements to check people's identity, more and more people are getting caught out with badly thought out rules like that. The legimate needs for it have expanded, with benefits and problems.

I'm not sure it would do much for voting, but how ID works in this country is an issue many struggle & blocking people from more and more areas of life with things as they are. With more legal requirements to verify people's identity to prevent fraud in many different areas of life, it's getting a lot harder to not have photo ID.

It does come with risks and may not be how people want society to go, but in the last year I or others in my home have had to have ID to meet legal requirements on prevention of money laundering, to open bank accounts, to take the Life in the UK test, to take the naturalisation oath and get the related certificate (which then gave me the right to vote), to get an enhanced DBS check, and to be able to take assessments as a private candidate.

How else would people like these be handled? The alternative to ID for a private candidate was getting a signature on a paper from someone from a "suitable profession" from a list of 6 professions (totally reliable and doesn't at all have classist barriers or an issue when we were in the middle of lockdown). It was that or my DS1 wouldn't be allowed to test for a qualification, because enough people have pushed through wanting to make sure people aren't getting others to take the test for them.

I used to have a Biometric Residency Permit required by the UK government for non-EU immigrants. The UK government actually handles a lot of IDs and databases - not perfectly, and yes people are making money hand over fists from it, but from BRPs to bus passes (both of which I've seen as potential ID to use for voting), they're handling or paying others to handle it and they've all got out data on it -- at least those have a form of information to put on it, unlike websites that take our information.

Yes, I got used to it. The only thing that annoyed me was the cost to get rights I'd had with indefinite leave to remain. It was only used a handful of times for things like the Life in the UK test and the same things most people use for ID. In fact, I used it more for the US's requirements for ID than I did for anything related to the UK.

To read the data on it, you need the technology and software to read it - I watched it be scanned at my Life in the UK test and it was quite a bit of kit - everyone else just looked at what was printed on it. Yeah, some criminals can get the kit, just like they do from our devices or other ID. That's why we're meant to report if things like that get stolen or lost.

I was actually a bit sad when I had to cut mine in four after I got citizenship and send it back, on threat of fine if I don't, mostly because there isn't as handy a British version as a non-driver. The UK seems so far behind on this from everyone else on getting at least a voluntary form of universally accepted ID not connected to passports or driving.

SunflowersAndLavender · 11/05/2021 20:48

Well exactly, you tell me. You keep repeatedly asking people if they would agree in principle with the finger ink idea, despite opposing compulsory ID cards.

I said I would.

Great. Then you answered the question.

Just not sure what the 'and?' was for. I asked a question. You answered it. Job done.

SunflowersAndLavender · 11/05/2021 20:51

I could also vote with my ID card and then return later and claim to be Sam Smith and ink my finger.... Voter fraud.

Yes! Good point. I didn't think of that. So we either all have our fingers inked (people can tell who voted and how didn't) or we have photo IDs.

On balance I'm still coming down on the side of photo IDs.

00100001 · 11/05/2021 20:58

@SunflowersAndLavender

I could also vote with my ID card and then return later and claim to be Sam Smith and ink my finger.... Voter fraud.

Yes! Good point. I didn't think of that. So we either all have our fingers inked (people can tell who voted and how didn't) or we have photo IDs.

On balance I'm still coming down on the side of photo IDs.

But the ID card won't stop voter fraud.

Because I could just as easily create a fake voter card for Sam Smith. How is the poll clerk going to check that I'm not Sam Smith from next door?

Here you go Poll Clerk... I have a card, ta daaaa! imam most definitely Sam Smith from No 2, and not Jordan Jones from No 1. Look, it says so. And loon that's my photo. And here's a made up DOB.

The clerk only has a list of names against addresses. That's all. They have no extra information. So how can they know that person IS Sam Smith? Answer: they won't. Just like they have no idea now. They just trust that you are telling the truth when you say who you are.

And besides, how will they identify a fake card? Who will train the poll clerks? How will their training be kept up to date? How will they reliably be able to tell a fake card, when they only clerk a few times a year (if that, some only do general elections)

SunflowersAndLavender · 11/05/2021 21:09

Because I could just as easily create a fake voter card for Sam Smith. How is the poll clerk going to check that I'm not Sam Smith from next door?

That's a lot of effort to go to, isn't it?

00100001 · 11/05/2021 21:13

@SunflowersAndLavender

Because I could just as easily create a fake voter card for Sam Smith. How is the poll clerk going to check that I'm not Sam Smith from next door?

That's a lot of effort to go to, isn't it?

But I want to steal a vote. So I will do whatever it takes now you've introduced ID cards. Yes, before I could just say I was someone else,bit but I just have to make card. A little trickier,yes,bit it's worth it for my extra vote (s)

An ID card won't prevent voter fraud. So it's an absolute waste of time.

NightoftheLivingBread · 11/05/2021 21:19

@SunflowersAndLavender

Well exactly, you tell me. You keep repeatedly asking people if they would agree in principle with the finger ink idea, despite opposing compulsory ID cards.

I said I would.

Great. Then you answered the question.

Just not sure what the 'and?' was for. I asked a question. You answered it. Job done.

Well, because I can see you’re asking repeatedly for other people to answer the question. It kind of implies it’s going somewhere. Like you might have a further point to make. What are you doing then, a survey?