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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should people be allowed second homes?

222 replies

Soubriquet · 09/05/2021 08:59

I’m not talking about those who have second homes to rent out, I mean ones who leave the house empty 90% of the year and visit maybe once or twice as a holiday home.

Surely it’s bad for the area to have so many empty houses that can’t be used as they are holiday homes especially if they live abroad and only visit once every few years. If ever

I’m also concerned that there is so much homelessness in this country that could easily solved by reducing the second home movement and allowing people to rent cheaply

So. What do you think?

OP posts:
happinessischocolate · 09/05/2021 20:40

@Bythemillpond

happinessischocolate

So how would that work out

All the people living in btl properties would move into a load of newly built council properties (no idea where all these council properties would be built). Triggering a massive housing crash. So people wouldn’t be able to afford their homes, hand the keys back to the mortgage companies and then demand the council build more homes to house them in.
So councils would have shelled out millions, built on any spare bit of land and lost a huge amount of money building houses that had become worth less than they were built for. Mortgage companies would lose millions (don’t forget where people’s pensions are invested in)
And we would then be left with a load of worthless uninhabited houses.

Apart from that being a huge waste of money it is hardly a green idea to build houses for people who already have a house.

Please explain why you think people suddenly can't afford their homes and hand back the keys even though their mortgage payments haven't increased ??
happinessischocolate · 09/05/2021 20:43

@Anonmousse

Another idea would be to build loads of council houses, enough so that everyone renting privately can easily rent a council house instead

Council properties are generally longer term rentals, and council owned doesnt neccessarily mean better. Did you see the recent reports on the abysmal conditions some council tenants were living in, in Croydon? They were living in horrifically maintained (or not maintained!) Properties with
damp, mould, water leaks that hadnt been addressed etc. There are waiting lists for council properties, they cant cope with the demand that already exists (in terms of providing housing for those in temporary accomodation or adequately maintain the houses it already owns) let alone add the student population to its list of tenants and anyone else who wants a short term let!

Yep they can't cope with the demand as it is, because they need to build more council properties.

The amount of money that is paid in housing benefit/universal credit to landlords is astronomical, that money should be spent building and maintaining council houses, not paying off landlords mortgages.

Susie477 · 09/05/2021 20:56

Yes, of course they should be allowed. This is Britain, not North Korea.

But second homes should be taxed very heavily - several thousand pounds a month in the tourist areas which are hit hardest by them, eg Cornwall. The proceeds should be used to finance the building of houses which are legally restricted to being lived in by local people.

CirclesWithinCircles · 09/05/2021 21:09

Bythemillpond CirclesWithinCircles I presume the hotel closed down because it needed seasonal staff and if people couldn’t rent anywhere and didn’t want to live in the village f/t then they couldn’t buy either so couldnt work at the hotel. It just goes to show that people who came to the village spent money in the village and kept their properties and people’s jobs in the hotel going. Now the very community it was supposed to save is slowly dying.

I'm pretty sure it closed down due to a combination of having terrible reviews and a lack of custom. The Highlands are full of foreign workers during the season in hotels and hotel staff normally get housed in the hotel itself, so I can't see why you would think seasonal staff would want to buy or rent property there.

There just aren't enough people who want to live in places like this any more. Second home owners need to be encouraged, because at least they will keep their properties maintained and live in them part time at least. But putting financial barriers to second home ownership doesn't exactly help. A lot of the shops have closed too -quite a fine buildings but decaying now too. Its like a ghost town.

Funnily enough, there used to a small branch of Harrods nearby, but it burned down and was not reinstated, and that seems to have caused a drop in visitors to the area.

My friend's parents used to actually have a second home in the village, which they retired to following spending most of their working lives in Edinburgh, but they are in nursing homes now and the property sold to another second home owner who plans to do the same when they retire.

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 09/05/2021 21:12

I don’t think it should be banned, as I don’t think the govt should control everything. But perhaps there should be more discouragement in terms of taxes etc.

Mypathtriedtokillme · 09/05/2021 22:58

Where I am it’s Air BnB’s that have totally destroyed the rental market.
Why would you get a renter in full time when you can have your place rented for 1/3 of the time and get even more rental return?
Which in turn has created homelessness and an extortionist rental market for those remaining.

MrsJuliaGulia · 09/05/2021 23:04

Yes we should definitely start telling people how to live their lives and what they can and cannot buy with their own money.
Let’s all move to China.

That said, I concede that it is annoying in places like St Ives where locals are priced out. But the same could be argued anywhere including London where lots of people from overseas invest money in property without ever living there.

The government add an additional 3% SDLT onto second homes, that’s fair, and enough.

Seafog · 09/05/2021 23:05

So what happens if I buy a home, and then buy vacant land to build a summer cabin.
Are you allowed a second home if you create one that didn't exist before?
What if that holiday home is used by multiple family members through the year?
How many trips to the second house before it becomes allowed?

OldScrappyAndHungry · 09/05/2021 23:08

Of course no one needs two homes OP and you’re absolutely right about it driving up house prices and leaving ghost towns in certain areas.

But largely people don’t give a shit about how their actions affect others. Not one tiny wee shit. Look at Thursday’s election results.

So while it would make a difference it’s never going to happen sadly Sad.

SnackSizeRaisin · 09/05/2021 23:13

Various options exist to control this problem.

  1. Have a rule that anyone buying a house has to live in it for 9 months of the year
  2. Allow a number of second homes, or allow certain types of building to be used as second homes (ones not suitable for living in due to no garden or overlooked or very tiny
  3. Allow second homes but charge substantially increased council tax (e.g. triple or more)
  4. Have a rule that you can only buy a house in an area if you've lived there for at least 5 years

Personally I'd go for a combination of option 2 and 4 - most houses for residents to buy, some for second homes, some for rented residential accommodation. It's London that suffers from.this problem more than most places. There needs to be a stop put to foreigners buying homes with no intention of ever living in the UK and some not planning to rent them out either.

SnackSizeRaisin · 09/05/2021 23:22

To expand, why would you penalise someone who wants to live in a cheap studio apartment in a cheap area of a city for work who would rather invest their money in a proper house in the area of the country that their grandparents were from

They can live wherever they want. But they should not be able to buy a house in an area in which they don't live as an "investment" that will not be lived in, if there is demand for that property to be a home for people who live in the area.

They can always buy a property to let full time if they want an investment.

And you don't have to have the same rules everywhere. In a place where there's no demand, or for a particular property that hasn't sold after a set time, it's perfectly possible to have different rules to suit the local community. However the situation needs to benefit the people who actually live there in the present, not those who live elsewhere.

CirclesWithinCircles · 09/05/2021 23:23

@Seafog

So what happens if I buy a home, and then buy vacant land to build a summer cabin. Are you allowed a second home if you create one that didn't exist before? What if that holiday home is used by multiple family members through the year? How many trips to the second house before it becomes allowed?
Now, now, you won't be allowed to do stuff like that in Britain. And small summer cabins are remarkably rare here. I assume that local authorities don't like giving planning permission for them, because they don't meet building standards. Its not as if they ever come up for sale cheaply. You can £200,000 fancy log cabins which are basically normal houses, with an 11 months restriction on occupancy. Or you can rent a small one with no inside toilet on a park or even buy a caravan and pay extortionate site fees.

Its a bit ironic that we have to lead fairly miserable lives here, with few rewards for our city centre working. Someone's even objecting to AirBnB, because of course how dare people expect to rent convenient, cheap holiday accommodation direct from the owner! Stay in an expensive hotel only!!

Foreigners holidaying here must think we're mad.

All this does is put second home ownership out of the reach of ordinary people and accessible only to the very wealthy.

Bythemillpond · 09/05/2021 23:38

Please explain why you think people suddenly can't afford their homes and hand back the keys even though their mortgage payments haven't increased

Maybe I am being mercenary but if I had say savings of £30,000 and was paying a £300,000 mortgage on a house that was only worth £30,000. I would hand back the keys and buy a similar house outright.

The mortgage company would try to mitigate its losses and then come to you for the balance. With no mortgage against the property you own you would then be able to come to an arrangement of paying a set amount per month. Probably less than your mortgage was with no fear of interest rates rising.

Or in our case pre computers they could actually lose all record of you and you never hear from them again.

Bythemillpond · 09/05/2021 23:48

Mypathtriedtokillme

Where I am it’s Air BnB’s that have totally destroyed the rental market
Airbnb didn’t do that.
Legislation to stop btl mortgage interest being claimed against tax did that.

If you have a mortgage on a btl property and pay £10,000 per year in mortgage interest you pay that from your own after tax profits/earnings.
Convert it to a holiday let and suddenly that £10,000 mortgage interest can be put against tax. That could be another £4000 per year added to your net income.

Seafog · 10/05/2021 00:13

@CirclesWithinCircles here is Canada lots of people have cottages/cabins/camps that are shared by the family.
Multiple generations use it, spend summers, holidays, hunting season, supporting local business and paying taxes.
I don't see how doing that is so harmful

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 10/05/2021 00:48

I’m just curious as to why houses in London for example, are left to rot and decay and stay empty whilst the owners live abroad and actually have no intention of doing anything with the house.

It could be rented out cheaply but no it’s seen as a status symbol instead

It may be an extreme example (or maybe not for London), but I remember reading about an Arab sheikh who lives full-time in the Middle East, but who owns/long-term rents an ultra-prime underground parking space in Knightsbridge, in which he keeps a Rolls Royce (IIRC - or another very expensive car). He hasn't been to London in 20 years or more. I'm guessing that he probably has a property or two as well, and likely the same set-up in New York, Tokyo, Sydney etc.

For some, it's undoubtedly a status symbol; for others, they're so phenomenally rich that the cost doesn't even register with them and no amount of extra tax would alter their decisions in any way. You read of billionaires who, if they dropped a $100 bill, they would earn ten or a hundred times that amount back in the time it took them to bend down and pick it up. If you could have a second home in Rio or on the Algarve - just in case you might want to use it at any time - for the equivalent of a penny a month, would you turn it down? Honestly? Would everybody you know? Yes, you can hire one at any time, but it won't be your exact personal dream place; nor may it be available at any time you might want it.

I'm not a second home owner - have often thought how lovely it would be to have a home in our favourite coastal town to use for a number of weeks each year and then rent out for the rest, but there's no way at all we could ever afford that, so it's irrelevant to us.

Although not many second-home-owners are as rich as the abovementioned sheikh, I think that, for those who are extremely wealthy, the comparisons between second homes, second cars, way more pasta than you need are not totally ludicrous. It follows that, the better off you are, the more expensive an option you will likely want. And then, a second one is the logical next step. Then a third.

Unless we're on the breadline, any of us might need another tin or two of beans, packet of rice, whatever; but we don't just buy the one we need, we buy a number and stock up. Families that could manage with one car but can easily afford more will rarely just stop at the one. If you have hundreds of thousands in your bank account, if not millions, what's the incentive to have it in the first place if you can't spend it - and an extra four-pack of beans from Asda is probably not going to cut it.

Maybe there's a bigger picture in that, rather than dictate how many of something people can buy, we should restrict how much money they can amass instead. That wouldn't be very popular - it wasn't in the days of 90+% tax rates. Is it illiberal to do this? Would it drive the wealthy (and their taxes - if they don't avoid them) abroad? Is it more liberal to let people amass as much as they can, but put strict restrictions on what they can actually spend it on? Is it more immoral to have a three-bed cottage in Stevenage and another in St Ives than a single immense palace occupying the grounds that could otherwise accommodate 100 normal houses?

So many potential rambling questions - I certainly don't know the answers myself.

AlwaysLatte · 10/05/2021 01:06

Yes of course - if they're used. Not empty for years, unless there are extenuating circumstance.

caringcarer · 10/05/2021 02:00

I have a second home in France pre Covid I spend about 8 weeks each year there. I don't let it out but I allow can't, friends and my cleaner use it for free so it is occupied about 40 weeks of the year. I pay full taxes on the property. There are so many houses empty in France in rural areas they call it the dessert.

CirclesWithinCircles · 10/05/2021 08:40

[quote Seafog]@CirclesWithinCircles here is Canada lots of people have cottages/cabins/camps that are shared by the family.
Multiple generations use it, spend summers, holidays, hunting season, supporting local business and paying taxes.
I don't see how doing that is so harmful[/quote]
Iit seems that politicians here are quite good at stirring up the politiclcs of envy to justify their failing policies.

Much of Scotland is empty and depooukated too, but to listen to the Scottish government, you would think Scots buying a second home here were solely responsible for the Highland clearances!

It's ridiculous, but foreign buyers in Scotland would pay less stamp duty buying a second home here compared to a scot in their own country, because their first home would not be in Scotland.

Why on earth people fall for the "second home owners are the spawn of Satan and deserve to be punished by punitive taxation" nonsense is baffling, unless governments have been training them to react like that for such a long time, they can no longer make rational observations or compare what happens on other countries.

Figmentofmyimagination · 10/05/2021 09:02

Nationalism is heady, pernicious stuff.

Captpike · 10/05/2021 11:48

@Countrygirl2021

*If we were prepared to build enough houses so that there wasn't a shortage (including in attractive rural areas)*

We categorically should not be building in rural areas.

We should enforce people moving out of council/ housing association houses once kids have left home and moved into one bed flats so families can have the houses. That way we aren't taking up more land building council houses.

We should promote families staying together so one house is needed per family not two.

We should redevelop a lot of areas where houses are standing empty.

Are you a member of the Scottish family party?
Saz12 · 10/05/2021 12:08

There’s such wealth disparity now that some can pay so much for 2 or 3 weeks a year that someone else can’t afford it to use for 52 weeks of the year.

It’s laughable that second-home ownership prices others out of a property market. It shouldn’t be possible that there are so many at opposite ends of a financial spectrum that this can happen.

Unfortunately in the UK we don’t have the space for everyone to have a cabin in the woods style holiday home - too densely populated. We’re already encroaching too much into agricultural land and wild areas.

Reas0nt0beaway · 10/05/2021 12:09

I've been thinking what other thing are people not allowed to have more than one ?
More than one car
More than one child
More than one partner/spouse
More than one pet
More than one job
More than one degree

So if you can afford one property, then yes you can.

CirclesWithinCircles · 10/05/2021 12:26

@Saz12

There’s such wealth disparity now that some can pay so much for 2 or 3 weeks a year that someone else can’t afford it to use for 52 weeks of the year.

It’s laughable that second-home ownership prices others out of a property market. It shouldn’t be possible that there are so many at opposite ends of a financial spectrum that this can happen.

Unfortunately in the UK we don’t have the space for everyone to have a cabin in the woods style holiday home - too densely populated. We’re already encroaching too much into agricultural land and wild areas.

We have loads of space. The Scottish Highlands are full of the ruins of long lost villages and suffering depopulation, so while thats entirely different from wanting to live in Torbay or St Ives, I simply cannot fathom the hatred for second homes in Scotland.

Most of the Scottish Borders has been suffering depopulation for years, and flats in places like Hawick regularly appear at auction for £15k or so and remain unsold. Much of Northumberland is empty of people and has been turned into "industrial farmland". The same with parts of East anglia. There were actually quite a lot of lowland clearances, where people were moved off their rented small bits of land into local towns, and thats why we have derivation. It's not a natural pattern of settlement, its one which over the centuries has been used to benefit large, powerful landowners.

Especially when most of the Scottish government have them! The dentist chap at the press briefings has a croft on skye, his predesessor is the one who was sacked for travelling to her second home in Fife!

So people in that demographic are actually legislating to make it less affordable for people to do now what they have done in the past. I sometimes wonder whether the ambition of certain parties and their supporters is simply to make life qccord to a certain standard of misery, so we will be grateful for our 1 over priced week in a hotel, the planning permission for which was given by a government crony.

Adjust your expectations downwards - anything else is unfair and greedy!

And people actually fall for this.

midgedude · 10/05/2021 12:28

So as long as you have the money you can do what you like no matter what the impact is on others?

Not a world I would like