To think manageable London family life is now for the super rich?

[Notquitemanaging]

Defining manageable here as able to save a little bit and not be putting boiler repairs on credit card...

DH and I definitely privileged. Work in full time pretty well paid jobs - me a teacher, him in large corporate on well over median salary. We wanted to stay in London as both grew up here and so wanted to be near families and now wondering if that was just daft. Put all of our savings into family home deposit for fixer upper in zone four and mortgage 3.5 times joint income so big stretch but not completely mad.

Currently nursery fees for dd aged 2 and breakfast and after school club for ds 5 coming in at about 2k per month, will come down September next year when she can go to school nursery but currently finding ourselves over spending every single month and genuinely not doing anything like eating out, shopping for clothes other than kids or whatever, just things that come up with old house here and there (roof, boiler etc) I keep assuming we’ve messed up somehow and going over it all and can’t find a saving to make. Doesn’t help that we’ve put boiler and roof repairs on credit card so now but more going out each month on those.

Do wonder about the neighbours and if they’re all on secretly massively higher salaries, have a lot more family money or if we’re all in this boat whilst kids are small at least. I’ve been invited to a couple of things recently, just pub nights or whatever with mates where I’ve had to say I can’t afford it right now which feels awkward as a. Think makes people embarrassed and b. Suspect they think am maybe making it up but we really don’t have spare cash at all this year.

Does anyone recognise this situation? Not saying for a second anyone has a god given right to stay in London, wondering if is just generally understood now that to do this without major salaries like 100k plus or significant family help just doesn’t work... at least when kids tiny.

I do think this is life with young children, unless you wait until your late 30's/early 40's and are super established in your careers. It was like this for my parents and for DH and I. Hang in there, it gets better.

I think when children are small it is very hard, and a lot of families find they have to use savings to cover childcare costs, or decide that one person stays home to look after the kids. Should get better once the kids are in school.

Having said that, you do have good salaries so I’m surprised you can’t afford eg a pub night. I’ve found mumsnet very useful for budgeting advice if you want to share details and see if you can cut back anywhere.

Are you making the most of tax free childcare for example?

I think the manageability of a family life in London pretty much directly equates to when you bought, and how much equity you now have. How much you earn feels less significant - I know families in badly paid creative industry types jobs who have disposable income because they bought decades ago, and then (often younger) lawyers, doctors etc who are stuck renting and have no disposable income at all.

Thanks team.

If the house wasn’t such a current liability we’d be able to go out more and even as it is if I knew for a fact a night would cost max 30 quid that would be fine and dh and I definitely could afford that together if didn’t also have to find childcare 😂 It’s the fact that we’ve got cards to pay off too, no savings and when you’re out with a little gang and bill splitting it’s always going to risk running up to more than that. Especially when I’ve had a couple I know I’ll be first ordering in the rest :)

I’ve been having mates to garden for wine, not a complete hermit, just really watching things way, way more carefully than I think most people are who we are pals with... or maybe just have less easy going attitude to debt and more expensive house repairs :)

Same for me, only that I am a single parent. I have a good income, I absolutely don't spend on luxuries or senseless purchases and run a watertight budget, but I am not too far from living paycheck to paycheck, and some months with emergencies I am in the red. Yes, childcare costs are a main item of expense - even with two school aged children it costs ~£1500/month (4 hours of wraparound and budgeting for holiday care). Housing is another £1500/month. To meet only that, a gross salary of £50K is needed, before anyone can eat, pay council bills, heat the house, have running water, buy clothes or travel to work.
I have a cognitive dissonance when posters proclaim that someone on my income should be "rich" and it must be my fault and entitlement that there's no money left.

I think @MsMitford has it, really.

And the things that stuck out for me from your OP were "family home" and "fixer upper" - is your current house (ugh, not a fan of this term...) your "forever home"?

We don't live in London but when we bought our first house 6 yrs ago (when kids were 2.5 and newborn), we deliberately didn't stretch ourselves and although it needed a fair bit of work, my husband could do the vast majority of it so we knew we could keep a handle on renovation costs. However, now we inevitably ask ourselves whether we should have stretched ourselves more when prices were lower and are wondering how much of a jump we should make (and whether it'll be affordable along with our current lifestyle, which is by no means lavish!) when we do trade up. I guess what I'm saying is that it's swings and roundabouts - you took a bit of a punt on a fixer upper that will probably be worth a fair bit more when you eventually sell, or if you ever need to remortgage. Whereas we kept our disposable income a bit higher but are likely to need pretty substantial savings when we do move.

As PPs have said, though, it does get cheaper once the kids are in school!

You’re a total star forin, fair play to you. I also agree with Mitford that time of purchase makes a big difference but then also how on earth did anyone of young kid having age afford to buy years back in first place?

I do think 50k in many areas in the U.K. makes things very comfortable - quite a few people I trained with or who have moved from our school to Wales or Midlands on much less than that and having cracking time as housing and childcare so much cheaper. Did sort of know all this was true when we bought just hadn’t realised quite how true I guess 😂

Thanks Laquila - it is our forever home I think if we don’t end up having to downsize in order to be ever able to afford a serious piss up again :). We are not handy and don’t yet have the money to do the improvements needed but are throwing money at keeping it basically functional so who knows which gamble is right - appreciate your saying that though, like to think in ten years we can think this was definitely the right call!

Sounds like you've got a triple threat, London housing costs, renovation costs AND childcare.
We put any renovations on hold while we paid for childcare, and any essential works were either put on cc or generously paid for my DPs.
We paid a fraction of your costs, but for us it was a huge relief once they stopped.
As for nights out, for years I would insist on paying for what I'd had as I couldn't afford to split the bill. Luckily, there's always one or two friends who needed to do the same.

What I'm trying to say, is to just hunker down, acknowledge it is tight financially but better days are on the horizon (once they are at school). It gets even better once they get to secondary and dont need after school clubs etc.
I know that will feel like light years away, but try to accept this is a temporary skint time.

Massively depends when you bought!

We have a combined gross income in excess of £150k and despite that wouldn’t get close to being able to buy our modest 3 bed Zone 4 terrace if we were starting out now.

Fortunately we bought it when it was about half its current price and we already had some equity from sale of a previous flat.

Without inheritance or family support it’s impossible for FTBs in London.

A lot of families struggling with joint high salaries in London. It is unfair that some people would like for taxes to be raised even further. What is the incentive to stay in London? This issue also happens in big cities like New York and Los Angeles in the US where $400.000 a year per family does not cover all the expenses for a family of four.

If you've had 5 years of childcare and some of that overlapping for 2, no wonder you are skint
Hardest years of my life tbh.

I've noticed a massive difference in the parents in my DCs' classes at either end of primary. Oldest child - lots of arts based workers, part-time, freelance etc etc Youngest child - far more traditional professional jobs, two full time workers etc. House prices have well over doubled in the last 15 years in part of London.

Yep, it's all about the nursery fees, like paying an extra mortgage - and sounds like the end is in sight for you there.

Once they have gone, you'll be able to clear the credit card and pay for renovations and more disposable income.

That said, if you can wait to do more renovations rather than paying on credit card, I would do that.

The equity thing is massive too - my mortgage on 3 bed house is less than some of my younger colleagues pay to rent a room in a shared house. I don't see how this will work out without a major adjustment to house prices.

So probably more difficult for your children than for you, OP!

Your childcare costs are equivalent to our entire monthly outgoings. We live in NE Wales.

It will get easier when you don’t need to pay nursery fees. I know lots of young families in London with salaries about the 30k mark or less, even. They live in flats, not houses, and many rent, not own.

Nope, nothing you say even remotely substantiates your claim.

You are averagely off for a london couple with children. But like families in other parts of the country you struggling with child care and a mortgage. The only difference is that you will have a huge asset in 15 years time and they won’t.

@MsMitford

I think the manageability of a family life in London pretty much directly equates to when you bought, and how much equity you now have. How much you earn feels less significant - I know families in badly paid creative industry types jobs who have disposable income because they bought decades ago, and then (often younger) lawyers, doctors etc who are stuck renting and have no disposable income at all.

This is it exactly. We are lucky enough to have a manageable London life, and always have done even when we had small children. But we bought our first property together in 1998. It was a small 3 bed terrace in zone 2 and cost £106,000.

I think for young families now it is indeed for the very high earners, or those who have inherited, had a lot of help buying from their parents, or who live in social housing. I can't see how it can be otherwise.

It makes me worried for the future of the city actually. London can't survive without low and middle income earners.

Maybe loads of people will move away, housing will be easier to come by, prices will come down. I sincerely hope so!

Yup - totally agree. DH and I on good salaries which outside of London would be seen as extremely affluent but only able to live in a relatively rubbish area of London and we haven’t got kids just yet and worry about affording childcare. I think we will end up having to leave London tbh.

We live in zone 4 north London, we bought a 1930s semi in 2019. Earn together over 100k between us and have one child. We manage to save a little bit of money each month but not a huge amount. I completely understand what you mean and most would look at us and expect us to be rolling in it but we are not. Between a hefty mortgage, childcare costs and ad-hoc repairs we definitely have to be careful. I am not complaining and I am very aware of how lucky we are to be able to live where we do.

Why does 'family life' have to mean 2 children and owning a home?

We are on average to low salaries but we rent and have one child and it's been manageable. We are extremely lucky to have no debt, no car and no commuting costs, which helps a lot, so I'm aware we're very fortunate.

You chose to have two children and buy a fixer upper so yes, life will be expensive.

Dreamingbohemian it absolutely doesn’t have to mean that - renting would not be much cheaper tbh but you’re right, could have stuck at one kid.

LemonTT you’re also right, we will have an asset just wondering if trade off worth it. Under no illusions that everyone everywhere else has it easy, just wondering if we were daft to stay where we grew up. So many tricky calculations to make - I could work anywhere in the U.K., dh has fewer options but still definitely not tied to London.

“London family life” doesn’t mean owning a house, though. Most London families I personally know live in flats, usually two beds, but sometimes one. Many rent.

It doesn’t sound as if you have a great life tbh. I wouldn’t settle for what you have just to live where I was born. I’d be looking for somewhere I could get more bang for my buck and visit London a few times a year. It’s only a city. What makes it so fantastic?