DS nursery and additional needs diagnosis

[withpeaceandlove]

DS3 was referred by nursery to the additional needs team a few months back & they're coming to observe him next week. I have no experience with this so I'm not sure if iabu but I feel like I've been completely left in the dark and have no idea what's going on despite this being my child.
For example, I'm not sure what additional needs the nursery suspect he has, I think ADHD but nursery keep dropping hints (but never outright saying) that they believe he's autistic. I feel that I should know exactly what he's being assessed for but it's almost like they're too scared to offend me (I wouldn't be offended).
Despite the fact that this has been ongoing for around 6 months now nursery still don't seem to have any solid methods in place to deal with DS behaviour. I was called into the nursery the other day and they asked me for ideas on how to deal with his behaviour as they'd had a really tough day with him and had to put him in a room alone twice as he was being aggressive. They do have a senco but I've never met her or been told she's involved with his care. They also use 'no outside time' as a punishment for him despite the fact that I've told them that this will make him worse.
I'm concerned that the team who are coming to observe aren't going to get a true picture of what DS is like on a day to day basis as the nursery don't seem to have any experience with additional needs/suspected additional needs.
I just feel that I'm completely out of the loop and I'm not sure if the nursery's behaviour is normal? So I'm hoping someone with experience of this can tell me if IABU to be cross at nursery and think that they're handling this all very poorly? I'm tempted to go in on Monday and ask the manager to go through everything with me prior to the observation.

Are they trying to get an EHCP for your son?

@Kpo58 he had one for a few months and they closed it. I found it spectacularly pointless and it didn't help to clear anything up tbh

They won't say they suspect autism as they aren't qualified to do so

I would expect more information sharing, have you had any meetings with his key person etc

I think it’s a shame you don’t feel more involved, but from working in paediatrics I suspect the team looking into it have an absolutely open mind about this, and won’t really be guided much by nursery’s suspicions. They’ll be looking for signs of ADHD, ASD and other conditions and will be reach their own conclusions in time. They will offer you appointments too, but assessments tend to happen fairly slowly.

I don’t think you’re being unreasonable to feel frustrated about their lack of a plan for managing him. I would send an email asking for a meeting. He should have the SENCO involved, a MyPlan, various formal strategies in place. Take a look at SENDIASS for advice on how to advocate for him as his parent.

They can't just "close" an EHCP especially after just a few months. It can only be removed after an annual review to which you have to be invited.

I expect he had some other sort of non legally binding plan. I would push for a full EHCP needs assessment and ask the nursery to seek professional advice from an educational psychologist and perhaps also occupational therapist as part of that.

@THATbasicSNOWFLAKE no meetings with his key person, they've changed people 4 times but his current one is lovely. I just feel like everyone is as out of the loop as me, like no one really knows what's going on or what they're doing

Definitely ask to see the SENCO, and if they haven’t been involved in your child’s care, ask why not.

Tbh I’d also think about looking for a new nursery. Not because they’ve referred him, but because they don’t seem to have any clue what to do with a child with additional needs in the meantime.

We went through something similar with DS, and he has had several assessments at both nursery and at school - he’s under the SENCO care there but with no diagnosis other than ‘finds it hard to focus’. Despite the fact that he has no diagnosis (or funding or EHCP), they have put strategies in place to help him focus in class, even in Covid-times. Feel free to PM me, I’m not sure if I can help much but sometimes it’s useful to talk to someone who’s had similar experiences.

*Definitely ask to see the SENCO, and if they haven’t been involved in your child’s care, ask why not.

Tbh I’d also think about looking for a new nursery. Not because they’ve referred him, but because they don’t seem to have any clue what to do with a child with additional needs in the meantime.*

This

He can’t have had an EHCP for a few months that was then closed, I think you’re thinking of something else?

Nurseries and schools have to be very careful as they aren't qualified to diagnose.

I would ask to sit down with the manager and have a frank discussion about his behaviour and nursery and home.

It's good that they are asking for strategies that work from home.

It sounds like they are really struggling. No outside time is clearly wrong but if other children are not safe due to his behaviour it needs managing carefully and extra staff needed.

Good luck.

The SENCO was involved in the ehcp but she'd always say 'from what I've heard' or 'from what X has told me'.
I just feel like DS can be so sweet and lovely (don't get me wrong he's very difficult at times and has some tough to deal with behaviour) but the nursery have basically decided he's too much for them to deal with so they don't even bother trying.
I have thought about moving him to a different nursery but we will be moving house in a few months so I don't know if putting him through 2 new nurseries in a short time is the best way forward.

I'm not sure about the EHCP. They definitely referred to it as that and it was basically a monthly Skype meeting with nursery, health visitor etc and they would discuss what had been done and what they needed to do moving forward. They decided that they had done all they could until he was assessed and so said they'd 'close the plan for now'.

Nursery aren't there to give a diagnosis, but do ask to go through everything with them prior to observation. There is so much waiting involved in this process and it can be incredibly frustrating, finally finished the process for ds and got an asd diagnosis. It's normal to ask parents for ideas about what might help in setting, you will know him a lot better than they ever will. The specialist help will support them in supporting your son just as much as it will you. My son goes to an excellent school with a reputation for amazing send support but he still managed to completely stump them and they needed advice and support from the outreach and complex needs team.

@withpeaceandlove

I'm not sure about the EHCP. They definitely referred to it as that and it was basically a monthly Skype meeting with nursery, health visitor etc and they would discuss what had been done and what they needed to do moving forward. They decided that they had done all they could until he was assessed and so said they'd 'close the plan for now'.

This sounds very odd. This link is about EHCPs - www.gov.uk/children-with-special-educational-needs/extra-SEN-help

It definitely sounds like the nursery isn’t handling communication well, and I think your idea of going to discuss with the manager is a good one, so you can get a full picture of what is happening.

They may have applied for EHCP and had it rejected.

I don't think they can say what they suspect it is as they're not qualified to diagnose.

When you say he's put into a room by himself, I assume a member of staff is with him and this is to keep other children safe rather than a punishment?

Using no outside time as a punishment for a 3yo is ridiculous and even worse if they suspect additional needs. They obviously have no clue what they're doing. Have you told them about whatever behaviour management tools you use at home?

It sounds as though gh the setting doesn't have much experience with additional needs.
It's really important that they work I partnership with you and any outside professionals, with your child in the centre.
Are you going in on Monday to speak with the additional needs team? (Not for the actual observation, as this will make assessment trickier)
I expect your son had something like an IEP rather than an EHCP (which I suspect you/the sencowill need to start applying for)
I feel that I should know exactly what he's being assessed for but it's almost like they're too scared to offend me the setting are not qualified to decide this, and would be wrong to say they suspect any sort of diagnosis. At this stage it is all about getting the right referrals in order to ascertain the best support.
In order to do this however, they need to keep you in the loop and work very closely with you.
They also need your input in the best way to support your child, whilst they are waiting for professional input, advice and targets. It may also be that what works in the home setting, will not work in the same way in which he early years setting (this may be due to practicalities, eg staffing or other children or it may be due to the fact that children often react very differently in their home with their parents)
Unless they have additional funding, they will be unlikely to be able to be 1-1 with your child (which may be why he has has several keyworkers) - which will also hamper how they can support your child's needs effectively.
I think the best thing is to ask for a meeting with the senco and key person and have a frank discussion about what the plan is moving forward, and what all of you need to do to get the plan moving
Good luck!

That sounds more like an IEP than a EHCP. They won't, and should not, preempt an assessment but could put strategies in place to address behaviours and traits that concern them. What are these, is it sane at home and if so how do you handle it?

When you had monthly meetings with the SENCO and HV did they put any behaviour management plans in place?
This sounds really poor from the school. My son had loads of input from the SENCO and strategies put place despite not having an EHCP or diagnosis.

If it was an EHCP, you would have been involved in every step, filling in parental views, attending meetings, and signing the documents to agree with what targets had been set.
Has there been any referrals or professionals involved? SALT? Paediatrician? Has the HV or GP made any referrals?

I think they may have been referring to his IEP, now also known as a SAP or possibly IBP? So individual education plan, School action plan or individual behaviour plan - could that have been it? They shouldn't have closed it as if it isn't working they are supposed to review and make a new plan. If they ask you for strategies, they could put them on the plan, then they have to have a period of time where they are trying the strategies before they decide they are or not working. The targets need to be a clear objective with a time frame. So 'DS will use a mini trampoline / kick a ball outside when upset / overwhelmed/ anxious with support from an adult... etc The onus is then on the setting to make sure the child is able to access the mini trampoline/ ball etc every time and then it is reviewed whether that intervention has helped divert the aggression etc.

@3WildOnes no nothing like that. The health visitor was present at the meetings but would say herself that she wasn't really 'involved & didn't know DS but could make referrals if needed'. She did refer him the special educational needs inclusion team who are coming this week.
My mum used to work in a nursery with additional needs children and she said it sounds like a lot of people have dropped the ball but she wasn't sure if it was due to covid backlog which is what I've been told.

There is precious little funding for SENCOs in primary schools, not sure about in nurseries. In a 400+ pupil primary the SENCO will often have one afternoon of time to deal with all SEND issues so it is not unusual for them not to have had masses of involvement and to have to rely on what the child's usual teacher reports. An EP once told me observations were largely pointless anyway as it's one snapshot in timw
There also isn't a silver bullet in terms of behaviour strategies unfortunately - experienced, good teachers will sometimes struggle with children and its not unreasonable to ask what helps at home. Maybe the nursery are useless, it's hard to say, but they might be following all the typical procedures. As has been said, they cannot diagnose but will notice if a child behaviour does not follow the typical pattern of development. That's not to say child has any condition, but it's good that they at least want to investigate.

@somethingischasingme it was more like 'health visitor will refer to senit' 'Nursery will keep a behaviour diary' but more about the professionals than me ifyswim. I've not had much support with the actual day to day dealing with his behaviours