To think it's a bit sad that both people nowadays need to work to afford a household?

[Lowef]

I know this isn't a popular opinion on MN but was thinking how rubbish it is that today mostly both parents need to be working to be able to afford the basics of food, clothing, rent. mortgage etc for the family without being on the breadline.

I have really fond memories of playing with my mum in the garden planting pots, watching her cook whilst i sat on the worktop. She'd collect us from school everyday and on fridays she'd have baked some warm muffins, sweet buns which were still warm and fresh from the oven. She'd give some to my friends too. She taught me so many things like sewing, cooking, gardening (she was very green fingered), growing veg. She spent alot of time with us kids and i look back at those days really fondly.

In comparison I am nothing like this with my children - I just don't seem to have the time and energy for the things she did. I can't bake cupcakes in time for the kids school pick up as they're in the after school club. Dinner is a quick whisk up whatever I have in the freezer / fridge , I'm too frazzled and tired for spending lots of time with the kids. DH is the same.

In an an ideal world i would love to be a SAHM and have more energy and time for my family and myself too instead of just rushing through life. The years are going by so fast and most of my energy and life is taken up by work. The children are growing up so quickly.

Not sure if anyone else feels the same too or if ill get an MN roasting!

If there was a significant difference in outcome between SAHPs and WOHPs we'd know by now.

For a family of 4 outside London it's very possible to manage. Living frugally, no extras for the children etc.

The concept of "extras" on top of just "surviving" on one salary is interesting. Some parents choose to work so they can afford "extras".

Is it more beneficial for a child of, say, 7 or 8 to be collected by a parent every day or to have access to music lessons/swimming lessons/sports training. Is there an age when the child will gain more from access to these sorts of extra-curricular experiences than being at home with their parent? Do children gain "cultural capital" from the ability to travel abroad? Again at what age?

Personally I've always thought some extra-curricular experiences are important. I worked part-time when my DC were small and full-time when my youngest turned 7. I must admit I have always sacrificed quite a bit of my salary to "activities" because to me they are important and my kids enjoy them. When I worked part-time I spent less on clothing and on the house etc to be able to afford these things. I'm sure some people will think this was a waste and my DC would have been better off at home with me.

Bythemillpond I think it was inevitable when the equal pay act came in that wages would go down

Would you mind sharing your source for this as I have never come across this before and can find no evidence to support it. In fact I believe the opposite to be true. Wages continued to rise with the introduction of the Equal Pay Act and then later with the introduction of the Minimum Wage. It took until the recession of the late 00s to see wages fall

Of course wages have risen since the 60s and 70s (otherwise we would still be on £4 per week) but this thread is about how now you need 2 wages to do the things where 1 would have done.
Wages in general have fallen when compared with the cost of living. Just to get a mortgage to buy a house in most parts of the country you need 2 incomes. If you are forced to rent then that is more expensive than the mortgage
How many families with a working parents/single parent would fall into debt if tax credits and benefits were removed.

How many families with 2 working parents or single parents could afford child care without benefits to help pay for it.

It was quite possible for everyone to support their family on one wage in the past. If the lesser earner went to work p/t and that money went towards extra bits and pieces for the family, foreign holidays, days out, colour tv etc
Can you imagine living like that now?

Early years childcare alone can decimate one persons net monthly wage.

Honestly, I would hate to be unemployed.

We could live on my husbands wage quite easily but I love my career and the fantastic lifestyle and security that two good wages give us.

I was raised by hardworking parents with good careers and they set a great example for me. I work full time 3 x 13 hour shifts so I'm home 4 days a week anyway.

[quote Pumperthepumper]@lynsey91 did you read the articles I linked to? I’m sorry to be a bore about this but you’re wrong.[/quote]
Yes I have read it.

What am I wrong about? I am certainly not wrong that it is not just nowadays that SOME couples both have to work in order to afford, sometimes, just the basics. That was true in the past.

I am also not wrong that many couples could afford for just one of them to work if they chose to and had a lifestyle suited to that one wage i.e. price/size of house or flat, not having holidays abroad or choosing cheaper ones, not having a full sky package or even sky at all, not having the very latest mobiles etc etc.

Where I live there are quite a lot of youngish couples with children and quite a few only have the dad working. Just ordinary (probably minimum wage jobs) such as supermarket worker, care worker and they seem to manage quite well (most of them have 3 or more children).

The ones I know quite well have told me they get benefits which obviously helps. As I said before, they were no benefits apart from child benefit when I was young

I've had a year maternity which each of my three and then nursery.

When they were at primary school I fitted my hours round school and one of us was around for holidays. I did take some financial hit but the fun and opportunities and love we had after school (which included baking, growing food, gardening but also whatever clubs they wanted and lots of friends round or just sitting round chatting). I feel lucky we got that time and the bond that comes with it.

However now they're secondary age and need my time much less I'm working almost full time and piecing my career back together a to earn more. Career has taken a slight hit but totally worth it, not just for the DC but also for me and dh as the housework was done, admin etc looked after so weekends we're for fun and wider family.

@Hardbackwriter

If there was a significant difference in outcome between SAHPs and WOHPs we'd know by now.

Exactly. We should be focussing on the things we do know make a difference. Like the quality of childcare provision, the quality of education and poverty for example.

Today, we have much greater expectations of comfort and home life, so we need to earn more to be able to afford them. How many of us would be prepared to give these up?

This is it for us. I totally agree with you, OP, that it seems like most households need two working parents to keep up an "average" 2021 lifestyle - but I do think expectations and wants are generally (not always!) higher.

I complain about my own pressured life but the truth is I could stop working if we were prepared to downsize, or move to a cheaper area, or lose a car. I guess the reality is we choose the more spacious house in the good area and two cars, as we feel that benefits our family more overall.

@Bythemillpond

Bythemillpond I think it was inevitable when the equal pay act came in that wages would go down

Would you mind sharing your source for this as I have never come across this before and can find no evidence to support it. In fact I believe the opposite to be true. Wages continued to rise with the introduction of the Equal Pay Act and then later with the introduction of the Minimum Wage. It took until the recession of the late 00s to see wages fall

Of course wages have risen since the 60s and 70s (otherwise we would still be on £4 per week) but this thread is about how now you need 2 wages to do the things where 1 would have done.
Wages in general have fallen when compared with the cost of living. Just to get a mortgage to buy a house in most parts of the country you need 2 incomes. If you are forced to rent then that is more expensive than the mortgage
How many families with a working parents/single parent would fall into debt if tax credits and benefits were removed.

How many families with 2 working parents or single parents could afford child care without benefits to help pay for it.

It was quite possible for everyone to support their family on one wage in the past. If the lesser earner went to work p/t and that money went towards extra bits and pieces for the family, foreign holidays, days out, colour tv etc
Can you imagine living like that now?

Early years childcare alone can decimate one persons net monthly wage.

When exactly in the past was it "quite possible for everyone to support their family on one wage"?

I was born in 1954. Both my parents worked full time and still struggled. I had 2 siblings so certainly not a large family.

Even with mum's money my parents went without food sometimes in order that we were all fed. We only ever had a couple of very cheap UK holidays certainly not foreign ones. We did have some days out but mainly local and cheap. Her money certainly did not go towards "extra bits and pieces"

@Bythemillpond

Bythemillpond I think it was inevitable when the equal pay act came in that wages would go down

Would you mind sharing your source for this as I have never come across this before and can find no evidence to support it. In fact I believe the opposite to be true. Wages continued to rise with the introduction of the Equal Pay Act and then later with the introduction of the Minimum Wage. It took until the recession of the late 00s to see wages fall

Of course wages have risen since the 60s and 70s (otherwise we would still be on £4 per week) but this thread is about how now you need 2 wages to do the things where 1 would have done.
Wages in general have fallen when compared with the cost of living. Just to get a mortgage to buy a house in most parts of the country you need 2 incomes. If you are forced to rent then that is more expensive than the mortgage
How many families with a working parents/single parent would fall into debt if tax credits and benefits were removed.

How many families with 2 working parents or single parents could afford child care without benefits to help pay for it.

It was quite possible for everyone to support their family on one wage in the past. If the lesser earner went to work p/t and that money went towards extra bits and pieces for the family, foreign holidays, days out, colour tv etc
Can you imagine living like that now?

Early years childcare alone can decimate one persons net monthly wage.

Sadly wages - at least those at the bottom of the scale - haven't risen that much. An apprentice today gets £4.30 an hour.

Nobody is meant to be raising a family on an apprentice’s wage. It’s temporary during training - then they should move up to the minimum wage at least! So that’s not a fair example.

As a mum who always worked my thinking was there was no way I’d jeopardise my family’s financial security while I had to capability to earn a decent income!

@lynsey91 a lot of people in this thread getting mixed up with 'everybody', 'a lot of people' and a 'small minority'.
Based on median wage statistics the OP is definitely wrong.
Maybe what the OP is saying is that the minimum amount of money to survive is higher, meaning that the number of people able to afford one stay at home have a higher salary threshold. And the minimum wage has not increased to meet this threshold.
This may be true especially in terms of housing cost - but again not the MAJORITY of the population.
Furthermore all of these studies etc of costs of living don't take into account the number of children. E.g. 47% of children in families with 3 or more children live in poverty (source : cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/child-poverty-facts-and-figures)

It's a complex issue but to say that the majority of people don't have the choice to stay at home is untrue...

Some people do, yes.
Why the generalisation, there are lots of two adult families where only one works.

@Lowef

allthe80sweregreat yes, it's more the not having a choice about both working. It used to be one member on an average income would be ok running a household - just enough to live comfortably with a modest lifestyle - now you'd be on the breadline.

Surely it depends on your lifestyle and choices though. I'm sure every sahp who could work could soon spend the extra salary coming in, if that's what they wanted. If you want the finer things in life, have a high mortgage or rent in an expensive area, then you do need to incomes. If you live frugally and choose to have fewer outgoings you can manage on one small income, quite well.

Well put @TheLastLotus

It happens a LOT on here that people look around their immediate set of circumstances and then somehow extrapolate from that, this is the same for almost everyone else too.

@Devlesko. But many posters on here don’t seem to want to live frugally. They want broadly equivalent housing and lifestyle choices as families with two working parents whilst opting out of the workplace. To do this they invoke the apparently halcyon days when women were routinely excluded from the workplace, and many had less financial independence, fewer choices so women were stuck in horrible marriages as they couldn’t afford to leave. They basically want to live a 50s lifestyle but don’t appreciate that it came with many drawbacks for women.

There are many working women who are just as trapped, many of the posts on here saying they couldn't financially manage are from working mums.
I think losing half your family pot is the same now as it's always been, post divorce.
If people don't want to live more frugally and live in expensive areas no doubt they will need two incomes.

I sure as shit didn’t want my children growing up frugally.
Been there and worn that tee shirt.
There are no extra medals awarded for doing without.

@HelloMissus

I sure as shit didn’t want my children growing up frugally. Been there and worn that tee shirt. There are no extra medals awarded for doing without.

Very well said!

Yes of course managing with just some fraction of family income is challenging. But a person with a job and income is not 'just as' strapped than a person without any and who last worked 15 years ago.

Snookie00 it's 2021 and we are still perpetuating the myth that everyone could survive on a single wage with one parent at home, if only they were 'frugal' enough...

How ridiculous. It just isn't true. It's only when one half of a couple earns well enough that this is possible, and even then it's only possible in some parts of the country - not in the South-East, for example. If you earn NMW, there is no way you would be able to make your rent and your bills on one wage plus UC without living in poverty. It isn't about expensive holidays, second cars, luxuries and designer stuff - it's about being able to eat and heat your home, it's about things not falling apart when your washing machine dies (and no, most towns do not have launderettes any more!). The world has changed.

@pointythings

Snookie00 it's 2021 and we are still perpetuating the myth that everyone could survive on a single wage with one parent at home, if only they were 'frugal' enough...

How ridiculous. It just isn't true. It's only when one half of a couple earns well enough that this is possible, and even then it's only possible in some parts of the country - not in the South-East, for example. If you earn NMW, there is no way you would be able to make your rent and your bills on one wage plus UC without living in poverty. It isn't about expensive holidays, second cars, luxuries and designer stuff - it's about being able to eat and heat your home, it's about things not falling apart when your washing machine dies (and no, most towns do not have launderettes any more!). The world has changed.

I think it is really area dependent. I earn just above minimum wage plus tax credits (single parent) and we don't live in poverty, not frugal at all either. DS has an expensive hobby and we have at least 2 holidays a year. Income in total including all benefits and child maintenance is £24k. This is the East Midlands. If I lived in the south east I'd be in poverty for sure.

But equally, let's not perpetuate the myth that no-one can.

Nor the myth that everyone used to be able to in some rose tinted look back at some mythical era of history.

@pointythings has there actually been a point in time where earning minimum wage would’ve kept an entire family off the breadline?
Bearing in mind that NMW was only introduced in 1998

@BackforGood exactly
If everyone was able to do it under the majority of circumstances then we wouldn’t have any poverty ... or a very small amount anyway