Greed of ‘buy to let’

[LittleLottieChaos]

When did people start to think that they should profit from housing? It all feels incredibly Dickensian. Pees me off when I see housing being listed as buy to let investments rather than ‘here’s a house for a nice young family to live in’. Especially with the market so horribly skewed right now.

It is shocking that people seem to think they have a right to profiteer from those less fortunate by whacking on high rents, that more than cover their mortgages. Legit: you need one house, one house only. Or maybe I’m missing something... or these are genuinely just bad people.

Interested to hear how people justify it? Do you just think, fuck ‘em I want to be rich? Do you not think about the morality?

(I rent but am saving to buy an appropriate house to live in... not to profiteer from)

AutomaticMoon

I would think with £50,000 you should be able to buy something outright.
It might not be the most perfect place or directly in the area you want. It might be a shorter lease flat that needs a little work but things do come up very occasionally.

I don’t think you have to go as far as the North although you might have to look at other counties a couple of hundred miles away in the south/south west which might be better than going somewhere 500 miles away

I think if you can get rid of those defaults it would make life easier.
I have seen things come up in the South/South West for under £50,000 very very occasionally. Usually at auction but even with £50,000 I think you could get yourself out of where you are

I am in a specific work field that means I am continuously abroad for period that varies from a few months to two years or so buying a house to live in for 30 years and grow roots in a specific community wouldn’t work for me/my job/the way I enjoy living my life and so I am likely bound to be a short-term renter for life or at least most of my working life.

Yet I intend to buy my first property in a few months and then follow up with buying property in a couple different countries I spend a fair amount of time in either for leisure or work or make sense.

For me the goal in having multiple property is having a base in countries I spend a fair amount of time in but more importantly having something I can hopefully rely on comes retirement age. Since my job means I am going to have to self-fund my retirement and my health is already not the absolute best it’s paramount for me that I invest the money I do have but not guaranteed to continue to be earning in the future wisely now, while I can so come retirement age, I’ll have properties to sell to fund my retirement or care if my health fail.

My goal is to make a profit on sale rather than rent. My goal is to buy in places that are likely to become quite popular meaning the selling price will increase but keeping rent at affordable local rates and rent to locals for most of them in a way that means the mortgage gets paid off via the rent but where the rent isn’t set at all as a way to make significant profits and maybe use one or two as a base for half of the time (for when I am in between contracts) and half of the time as a holiday rental, which would hopefully be enough to recover parts of the benefits I could be making but would not be making due to keeping rent affordable.

As someone who grew up in poverty and who feel incredibly privileged to be in the position I am in to have a job that pays me decently so that being a home owner is actually something that’s feasible, it’s incredibly important for me to pay it forward by not over charging others who need housing and to extend the hand that’s been given to me multiple times throughout my life when in hardships and who undoubtedly led me to where I am.

I just moved out from California where people sell studios for millions or rent them out for 3 or 4K a month, forcing locals to move out and gentrifying cities with long-standing history and culture by making it unaffordable to all but the rich. That’s not who I ever intend to be and I do think people who indulge in that are morally questionable but I don’t think people are necessarily wrong for owning multiple properties and renting it out.

Many landlords don’t make profit from their Rentals, many actually lose money to tenants who don’t pay or trash their house. I personally think keeping housing affordable benefit most people and that the goal shouldn’t ever be to become rich through rent but I don’t think the assumption that everyone could buy if it wasn’t for BTL multi-property owners is right. I WOULD happily rent forever personally as the thought of having one house that I am tied to for life and supposed to live in all of the time for years, feel me with dread, I like the easiness (in some ways) of renting. And that’s why it’s likely that I will only ever live part-time in the houses that I might own, at least while I have a working life, as that’s just what I enjoy.

As someone who is dependent on short-term rental contracts for my job/living situation most of the time, I am so grateful for landlords who makes it possible for me to access to short-term housing that suits my need rather than forcing me to commit to year(s)-long lease for a place I won’t physically be in most of the time anyway. And I am extra grateful for landlords who keep housing affordable even though the current market makes it extra easy for them to increase rent to ridiculous unaffordable amounts as demand increase.

Not everyone have the same need and not everyone dream to own a family house, some of us need short-term leases, or specific housing arrangements that are only available thanks to BTL owners.

@LakieLady

Some people are thinking of 'landlords' as being like Peter Rachman of 20th century history, but they are nothing like, they're just ordinary, like ourselves

There are many good landlords, who own a proeprty or two and treat tenants fairly. But there are still plenty who treat tenants like a cash cow, won't carry out repairs and generally behave appallingly.

I worked in housing support/homeless prevention for many years, and saw at first hand how very badly a bad landlord can behave. And the impact of the bad landlords is significant, because so many of them seem to own loads of properties.

When you've had to help a family who've got to move urgently because water pouring in through a roof has left them without electricity, or without heating or hot water in bitter weather, the postman won't deliver because it is dangerous due to falling roof tiles, and a landlord will do nothing about it, it colours your judgment somewhat.

Me too, and my experiences identified one real issue. There is no enforcement of the regulations/laws currently in place. That's a major factor in the dysfunctional market. It is a local authority issue rather than a landlord issue.

More regulations just puts prices up and profits down. It doesn't affect the shit landlords because they're the ones who break the law anyway.

[quote AutomaticMoon]@NotImpossible you’re privileged if you think the landlord cares about the law. My neighbours were illegally evicted because they wanted regular maintenance done. It’s bizarre that privileged people think I just don’t know my rights & that’s the problem & it’s pretty gross that privileged people shamelessly brag about the great lives they can achieve by exploiting the proletariat[/quote]
I am sorry - I didn't mean to imply that you don't know your rights - from your posts you do seem to be aware. That was meant to be a seperate point about tenants in general - following on from my reply to you.
I do think it's a shame that tenants often cede power to landlords because they aren't aware of laws which could protect them. But it was poorly expressed by me - apologies.

Did your friend's landlord face criminal charges? I always wonder whether illegal evictions are followed up - are the police interested?

Maybe I am privileged because all the landlords I have encountered do respect the law (like most people - of course, there are criminals in all areas of life).

@Bythemillpond

AutomaticMoon

I would think with £50,000 you should be able to buy something outright.
It might not be the most perfect place or directly in the area you want. It might be a shorter lease flat that needs a little work but things do come up very occasionally.

I don’t think you have to go as far as the North although you might have to look at other counties a couple of hundred miles away in the south/south west which might be better than going somewhere 500 miles away

I think if you can get rid of those defaults it would make life easier.
I have seen things come up in the South/South West for under £50,000 very very occasionally. Usually at auction but even with £50,000 I think you could get yourself out of where you are

Can you find some examples of these?

I've just run a search in Cornwall, and there was nothing except holiday homes (where year round occupation won't be allowed, so unsuitable) and two former churches needing full renovation and conversion (which PP couldn't afford; one also notes an "adverse mining report" which sounds ominous).

I then ran a search in the South Wales valleys - notorious for cheap property, no jobs, and general grimness. Bugger all public transport, so not driving would be impossible. Even there, there's only a handful of choices.

The house my mother grew up in (which they could only rent as like most people in the UK then and in most of Europe people never buy of course.....) is about £50k to buy near Sunderland.

AutomaticMoon I am sorry your landlord never did repairs ever. I think there are two markets - the young professionals lettings, tenants on high salaries but don't want to buy yet, only want to stay a year, landlords leeting out what was their one bed flat before they married or their on buy to let which they will probably sell in a few years when they buy a new house with their husband so they want it to be in really good condition, rent about £1200 etc ( that would be the places my husband and I let out in the 1990s - 2 flats, outr London and those of my children who let somewhere out today). Genuinely we always did repairs. We spent 100 hours painting - we used both to want to do it between lettings as it was easier than minding 2 children under 5.... I did hours of it and even in 2021 my sons' let houses - we have done maintenance all the time. I said up the thread I have spent about £10k on each house including legal fees etc and some of that has been repairs as they arise - that is in the last 1 - 2 years.

Let us see what we can find for £50k. This is on the street where my mother grew up and it is not far from the sea either so that is a plus point and it is not that far to commute for work in Newcastle if your wage allows www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=67257130&sale=8779429&country=england

However the person with £50k cash can they get a mortgage and spend a bit more? I have not checked the fast moving thread. There are also some houses for 1euro (yes one euro) in an Italian village if you promise to live in them and do them up and stay a set period. [[https://www.case1euro.it/] There are quite a few schemes like that in Italy I believe but of course not everyone wants to move.

I love Cumbria - might be worth trying there is £50k is the limit. I am from NE England but have often been over there including for work at the nuclear power plant - it is not a place with no work at all. www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/47982054#/

NW Scotland -another gorgeous place but this is just a pl;ot of land for £45k

www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-for-sale/property-65896458.html

Here is another interesting one - Orkney (where my ancestors or some of them are from - lovely place) - however you would have to use half the £25k budget to get a roof on the place www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/98128496#/
However none of use would dispute that £50k is bottom of the market.

The only way to stop it happening is to ban private lettings. Maybe make it so that you can only rent from the government. And they can't charge more than what the mortgage would be.

I don't like landlords to be honest. Met too many shite ones who don't give a damn about the people they rent to. Or you've got the ones who are absolutely loaded, but try to make out they are skint to get money off stuff. Not sure how you can find yourself as an 'accidental' landlord either. If you inherit a house, sell it. Don't need to rent it. You are choosing to. That's not an accident.

LadyWhistledownsQuill

I was looking at this place. I am aware it is an on line auction and am really interested in how much it will go for

www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/91009753#/

To be honest I am interested in it myself. If it had been going a month later as 21st May is just too soon. (Just selling my house)
I think it looks like a really nice property.

As I said they are few and far between but I have seen places come up for sub £50k usually in auctions that do go for £50k or less but like everything it is about keeping your eyes open being really flexible and looking on the property auction websites and right move and zoopla daily.

@Bythemillpond

LadyWhistledownsQuill

I was looking at this place. I am aware it is an on line auction and am really interested in how much it will go for

www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/91009753#/

To be honest I am interested in it myself. If it had been going a month later as 21st May is just too soon. (Just selling my house)
I think it looks like a really nice property.

As I said they are few and far between but I have seen places come up for sub £50k usually in auctions that do go for £50k or less but like everything it is about keeping your eyes open being really flexible and looking on the property auction websites and right move and zoopla daily.

Unfortunately all the nearby flats that have been sold in the last couple of years (looked at the market info bit) went for £100-194k so I suspect the market estimate is a deliberately low starting price to get people interested.

The 50 year lease would be concerning too - I don't know about PP but I may still be alive in 50 years, and if you needed to move in unforeseen circumstances it would make life very difficult. I'd want to know more about extending the lease - I suspect this hasn't been done by the current owner for a good reason (eg being very expensive, or just straight up impossible)

A 50 year lease will be relatively a lot more expensive to extend.

It starts to more expensive after 80 years, so it’s well past that point.
Unless you can get a definite quote for the cost of extending (I’d ask a specialist solicitor) and can well afford it, personally I wouldn’t touch it.

LadyWhistledownsQuill

I think judging by the fact this one is under offer which is absolutely beautiful that the ones going for £100k+ have had their leases extended.

www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/89834461#/

Their is nothing to stop op from mortgaging the property or getting a loan against the property when she has got rid of the defaults off her credit file in order to extend the lease

Lease calculator will help determine the cost of extending as long as there is 50 years or more remaining

www.lease-advice.org/calculator/

A very basic calculation given we don’t know the ground rent is about £27-£29,000.

As I have said being flexible and thinking outside the box is needed if you really want to buy a place.

I don’t think even £30,000 is that much given what you would be getting and the choice was living in a rented house in disrepair or a £145,000 flat that in total will have cost you much less.

We have a couple of BTLs and the fact is there’s no safer pension than them. I agree there should be much more social housing and those properties shouldn’t be sold off to their tenants, and certainly not at a massive discount. That’s what’s caused the problem with housing shortages.

I think the only way selling of social housing could work would be if the money raised was ploughed back into providing more, but this was specifically banned when Thatcher brought it in.

Personally I thin the selling off of council housing has done far more damage to housing issues than private landlords have done.

I think for people my age and older BTL took off because of a perfect storm between the pension scandals and the earlier removal of rental restrictions.
People became distrustful of companies taking their pension and using it for their own ends and then finding that the money wasn’t there when they needed it.
For these people and those that saw parents and friends broken by being used as a cash cow for someone’s life style being in charge of your own money was a big thing.

Whilst a lot of I presume younger people invest in the stock market, cryptocurrency etc it seems a lot more regulated and transparent nowadays and whilst I get the impression that they think it is a fantastic idea that everyone should do instead of btl I think for those that lived through the “fraud years” the trust has gone.

The only way to describe it is to imagine your feelings if you look at your computer screen 25 years from now and it says you have enough to retire on. Only the following day you have nothing. There is no come back. Your money has gone. Someone took your money to fund their yacht and the money has been spent.
The figures on the computer screen were made up.

Dmil and fil lost a huge chunk of their retirement pot (6 figures) to one of these frauds in the 90s. Ended up having to downsize to fund their retirement. They had spent their 50s and early 60s paying as much as they could into their pension scheme so they could have a nice retirement. They might as well as put all their money on the 3.30pm at Wincanton and watch it lose.

AutomaticMoon have you access to the Internet?
Since 2019 a landlord can be made to pay for repairs or you are entitled to compensation. There are loads of no win no fee lawyers who would help you. I get you would probably be served notice if you complain. I mentioned the richmond fellowship to you. The have much experience of helping people with special needs and mental health issues. You can also claim pip if you don't already it is non means tested and in most cases is awarded for mobility access and support.
My son has just bought a flat with a smaller deposit than you but I guess it depends on a permanent job. If you have one speak to a mortgage broker. Can you fit into a two bed flat? If so, you can afford the mortgage as with your deposit it would be less than £500 depending on your age. Talk to the above.

Not everyone has a massive portfolio of properties some us just have one house as a pension. It makes boils my p1ss when so called socialists with their massive pensions that usually have a property and shares portfolio lecture people who have just cut out the middle man

I think with £50,000 cash and a willingness to move there are places you can move to.

South Wales gives the most results including a 4 bed detached house (in a terrible state) for a guide price of £35,000 or many terrace houses that are more realistic.

Even an offer on this place in Somerset www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/105895856#/

(long lease but £700 per year service charge). Looking at what the other flats have gone for it looks a tad overpriced but if you are looking at offering cash they can only say no.

I think for a lot of people it isn’t about the fact they can’t afford to buy a house/flat It is that they can’t afford to buy a place in the area they want and the house that they want.

@bemusedmoose

pees me off too - the reason i cant buy a house is because all the 'fixer uppers' that use to be on the market when someone passed away or moved on are now snapped up, have a basic face lift and whacked up for rent at twice the monthly cost of a mortgage payment. I cant afford to save while being fleeced for rent either so the 20% deposit required for a mortgage is out the window too.

So many people around here brag about having a few rental properties as well as their nice big house while others cant get a foot on the ladder and are crammed in like sardines. So selfish and greedy.

Absolutely, speaking to a recently divorced shop worker, he has a deposit, can get a mortgage but all the houses he offers on are being sold to cash BTL buyers. He can't go to another area because the travel costs to work are too high and he'd struggle to get a job in that area. Anything cheap is being snapped up for rental, meanwhile the large new out of town estates have loads of properties unsold... too expensive to rent out or to buy.

Can't blame people, its the govt that needs to step in but as most MPs are also landlords, don't hold your breath.

Didn't the tories vote against min housing standards for rental properties?

Profiteer? Ridiculous.What a jealous and ridiculous comment.How are people profiteering.They are paying for it.Grow up.

Selling off of private housing gave a lot of people the view that the majority can buy a house in the UK so in a sense it gave false hope (huge opportunities, life changing for some council tenants on an individual basis) but perhaps too much hope as many higher % became property owners and that led people who do not earn much to think that is the UK norm whereas it never has been.

For the divorced shop worker hopefully he will fine because the current market froth will calm down as it always does and he can buy when there is not such a frenzy. We lost out even at asking price to the first house my son wanted to buy - not sure who got it. Then got the one at asking price because there was no chain at our end and the couple wanted to move back in with parents for a bit and my son was the simplest buyer even though for this year at least he is letting it out (his only property).

I live out here in zone 5 London. I had 2 hours a day commuting even when up all night breastfeeding a 3 week old baby (I worked full time). Zone 5 was all we could afford then (and now) as inner London cost a fortune. Not everyone would choose to live where I did but beggars can't be choosers.

lots of people don't want to buy
poor credit
moving constantly with work
new relationship
no deposit
don't want the responsibility of owning
stepping stone of housing when fist leave home
moved to new area don't want to commit straight away to buying
saving
Had house repossessed
the list goes on

Why be bitter about people who have the means to do this though? Ultimately they are often only trying to do the best by their own family or be able to leave something behind to warrant a lifetime of hard work and accomplishment. Sounds just like a touch of the green eyed monster to me to be honest.