Scrapping Shared Parental Leave

[EasterIssland]

It's in the news that it's been requested for it to be scrapped because it's not being used as needed and to get a new system in place.

I'm in between two minds about this, we took Shared Parental Leave with my son, our salaries were similar (I actually earned few ££ more than him), so we took 50/50 time . And I think it was good for my son to have 121 time with myself as well as 121 time with my DH and at the same time spending time together as a family. I'm spanish and right now in spain mum and dad can have 4 months off (which can be at the same time) when a baby is born, however, many dad's decide to delay a few months the shared bit so the baby doesnt go to nursery that early and many of them end up not using their bit as too busy at work (I've seen it a few times now)

I also take the new leave wouldn't be full salary, specially for the partner, as it'd be unfair for a mum to be circa £150/week salary whilst dad/other mum's are on full salary

So im unsure what needs changing so that the system works better.
Would 52 weeks for the mum at the current ML allowance + x amount of weeks at same salary really work? Unless the allowance is really increased to nearly match the salary I can't really see how this would work and how partners would decide to take more leave as it'd impact their home income

Would your partner have really taken chase of it if the allowance was higher ?

www.theguardian.com/money/2021/apr/26/shared-parental-leave-scrap-deeply-flawed-policy-say-campaigners

AIBU : A new system is needed and xyz should be done so it gets better
AINBU : I think the current system is good and a new one would not make partners taking more time off anyway

@Ariannah

This really isn’t demonstrative of a systemic issue with how the leave works, or that what women get (which is very often not an extended period on almost full pay) is unfairly generous Women get 6 weeks on full pay. Men get 0 weeks on full pay. That’s a serious inequality. Men can’t afford to be off work and not get paid.

You’re wrong. Women get 90% of their usual pay for 6 weeks. Men get 90% of their usual pay for 2 weeks.

Men’s paternity leave “cannot start before the birth” and you can give your employer advance notice that you want it to start “on the day of the birth” so either your DH didn’t ask for his rights, or misunderstood them, or the company acted illegally, or a combination of both. In your situation your DH could and should have had 2 weeks off at 90% of full pay as soon as you gave birth- if he didn’t that’s not the fault of the law. The law isn’t unequal particularly as the extra 4 weeks are protected for the mother as its for physical recovery. You obviously didn’t understand it either or you could have pushed your husband to do better in talking to his employer.

(In addition you have at least 6 months to save a little in order to take a bit more time. If he earns £1K a week saving even 5% over 6 months would allow him an extra week off.)

We wanted to do it, my DH would have loved it but at the time I earnt quite a bit less than him so It didnt make financial sense. It only really works where salaries are fairly equal.

We used SPL as I had to return at 6 months both times due to being the higher earner. We couldn't afford for me to be off on only stat pay.

It worked financially because DH was the lower earner so stat pay wasn't much different to his normal pay. He also now works PT and me FT.

There are lots of scenarios where using annual leave isn't possible to extend maternity. Teaching doesn't have annual leave.

I managed to BF mine until over a year each time. Pumping was unpleasant, instead I fed morning, after work and once per night.

People should decide for themselves how they want to split maternity leave without the government micro - managing everything. People should do what's best for their own families.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.se/20190514/dads-in-sweden-are-taking-out-more-parental-leave/%3famp

We need a system like this use it or lose it 90 days at full pay.

I echo what others have said, with a system where dad's receive leave that the mum can't take, what happens to single women? A number of you are saying that the leave is designed for the benefit of the baby, so why should the babies of single mothers lose out?

Shared parental leave wouldn’t have worked for us. It was much easier for my employer to get someone in for a year fixed term than it would have been for 6 months. Financially (and especially by my second) it wouldn’t have worked for us to have lost my husband’s salary. If we’d have had more equal salaries the position would have been different.

Also, while in theory I like the idea of an extra period of use it or lose it. It is not always feasible for someone to be off for 2 months with no cover. It’s some of those practicalities that need to be sorted though. It’s fine if you’re in a project-based role or something where your easily interchangeable but more of an issue for lots of senior roles.

@Dustyhedge

Shared parental leave wouldn’t have worked for us. It was much easier for my employer to get someone in for a year fixed term than it would have been for 6 months. Financially (and especially by my second) it wouldn’t have worked for us to have lost my husband’s salary. If we’d have had more equal salaries the position would have been different.

Also, while in theory I like the idea of an extra period of use it or lose it. It is not always feasible for someone to be off for 2 months with no cover. It’s some of those practicalities that need to be sorted though. It’s fine if you’re in a project-based role or something where your easily interchangeable but more of an issue for lots of senior roles.

I don’t agree with this approach where the role is more important than the time off with the baby. If they can’t replace someone then it’s the company’s problem. My husband and I weren’t replaced whilst we took our time off (6m each ) as by the time the new people would have understood what was needed it’d have been time to leave, but our son was our priority at that time.

Men get 90% of their usual pay for 2 weeks
No they don’t. Men get £150 per week or 90% of salary, whichever is lower. Pretty much everyone will be in a situation where £150 is lower than 90% salary, so that’s what they’ll receive.

@Ariannah

This really isn’t demonstrative of a systemic issue with how the leave works, or that what women get (which is very often not an extended period on almost full pay) is unfairly generous Women get 6 weeks on full pay. Men get 0 weeks on full pay. That’s a serious inequality. Men can’t afford to be off work and not get paid.

Women don’t get six weeks at full pay statutorily like I said, this is to do with you misunderstanding and not planning properly rather than a flaw in the system. If you’re reliant on statutory parental pay and don’t get any enhancement then it’s something that has to be planned for in advance for both parents to take it. Your particular situation might be too financially precarious to do so, but that is about how your life is set up rather than a systemic issue in this instance. If your husband earns £52k but you’re only a £1,696.06 deficit away from defaulting on your mortgage then you’re financially over-committed.

@MiddleParking where does 1696 come from ? Also something to bear in mind , just because you earn 52k a year doesn’t mean that you have load of spare. Just myself between mortgage / nursery fees and car loan I spend 1180 , so were I to go on maternity leave tomorrow then I’d be £600 short of my monthly commitments( yes I know my dh can pay for this but that would mean just his salary completely being wiped out if I was on maternity leave just with it)

The poster I was quoting said their financial commitments were dependent on her husband earning a grand a week (hence my assumption of £52k). Statutory paternity pay is £151.97 a week, so two weeks would have meant a deficit of £1696.06.

I wouldn’t consider your husband contributing to your maternity leave a ‘wipeout’ of his salary. It’s something people plan and save and move money around for.

My point is, pp said that men get two weeks at 90% of full pay. Which is wrong. Men get two weeks at £150 or less. For a lot of families that loss of two weeks of father’s salary is unsustainable, particularly at a time when the mum may be out of work or on a reduced salary herself, and there are expenses to pay for the new arrival. Personally I had lost my job due to getting pregnant then had to fork out for baby equipment - we couldn’t afford for DH to lose two weeks salary on top of that.

I wouldn’t consider your husband contributing to your maternity leave a ‘wipeout’ of his salary. It’s something people plan and save and move money around for.

Sorry If I didn't explain myself properly, when I got pregnant we discussed how to do it and it worked for us financially, we took shared leave both of us and when one was on leave the other one was mostly paying for the household bills,

I do agree with the current petition that the financial contribution needs to be higher , if a family is going to struggle financially then they wont take part of any leave for 18m

when I got pregnant we discussed how to do it and it worked for us financially, we took shared leave both of us and when one was on leave the other one was mostly paying for the household bills
I didn’t plan to get pregnant so we didn’t discuss it or save up in advance. When I informed my employer he found a legal excuse not to employ me any more. Nobody else would hire me while I was visibly pregnant. So I had no job. DH’s salary was our only income. We couldn’t afford for him to lose two weeks salary.

Returning to my original point: it’s discriminatory that women get time off work on 90% pay but men don’t. Men effectively lose their salary for any time they take off. So families have to either save up in advance and prepare for that loss, or not take paternity leave at all, which appears to be what most families do judging by the low uptake.

I like the system because it can be used for financial benefit where the woman is the main wage earner.

We didn't share parental leave as it didn't make financial sense to do so- DH earns more than me. DSis would use it because she earns more than her DH.

I don't see a need to scrap it, I think we should enhance parental leave so that both parents can have a year off work/one parent can have two. I'd keep the pay the same for either.

Shared parental leave doesn't work for many, that's the problem. Mums will undoubtedly take the first chunk of time off and that's the hardest. If I went back to work at 6 months and DH was then home with DD, he would have had a much easier and more fun time of it than me. I've needed the 12 months for my mental health too tbh. DH has a great relationship with DD but with our personalities and strengths individually, we both agree it's better for me to spend more time with DD on a day to day basis. I guess to some that might look like DH missing out, but we made the best decision for our family.

Returning to my original point: it’s discriminatory that women get time off work on 90% pay but men don’t.

Yes but in this context "discrimination" shouldn't be automatically seen as a dirty word. It just means recognising legitimate differences. Childbirth and recovery are hard work, and the father does not have the same need to recover. I can see a benefit in also offering men 6 weeks of 90% pay, for the purpose of encouraging equal parenting, but the basis for that isn't that it is otherwise unfair. It's a disservice to women if the female role in reproduction is brushed off in the name of equality.

Men effectively lose their salary for any time they take off.

After the first 6 weeks, so do women. Do you know many women who have taken a 6 week maternity leave?

Was just about to post about the financial side. Agree with you on everything @SecondGentleman women have to have recovery time. Isn't it illegal to work the first two weeks after birth or something? Standard major surgery ie. c section recovery time is six weeks too. And I know plenty who've had episiotomies or bad tears that have absolutely needed many weeks to heal. Men don't need that time in the same way.

If they replace it with a German or Norwegian style system which pays then yes all for it.

We used shared parental leave and my DH loved it we actually did it because I'm the higher earner and it made no sense for me to take the last 3 months unpaid where as I could cover the bills more easily.

But the paperwork is so complicated and employers (even in the public sector) aren't used to it at all which doesn't help!
My friends HR argued for ages they didn't have to pay him for it which they did as it was in the first 20 weeks so part of their policy!

Men effectively lose their salary for any time they take off.
After the first 6 weeks, so do women. Do you know many women who have taken a 6 week maternity leave?
I’m not saying it’s great for women. But it’s even worse for men.

Childbirth and recovery are hard work, and the father does not have the same need to recover
No, but he’s stressed and traumatised and tired. He has a partner who is physically incapacitated and needs support to cope with this life changing event and accompanying physical injuries. Other family members are at work and definitely aren’t eligible for leave. The dad should be able to take time off to support the mum.

After a three day labour followed by surgery I was in no fit state to be left unattended. The hospital kicked me out less than 24 hours after surgery. I could hardly even stand up unaided, never mind look after a baby on my own and try to establish breastfeeding. I certainly couldn’t do laundry, grocery shopping, cooking, housework ... I was unbelievably tired and kept passing out. I needed help. Someone to cook, hoover, wash and iron the baby clothes, look after the baby so I could sleep. DH wanted to take unpaid emergency leave at the last minute because I was so poorly, but his employer said no and told him to hire a carer! As if we have the money. In the end my mum called in sick so she could look after me. DH, who hadn’t slept for three days, who had a seriously injured wife and was traumatised from watching me almost die, had to go to work. It’s shocking.

@Ariannah

Men effectively lose their salary for any time they take off. After the first 6 weeks, so do women. Do you know many women who have taken a 6 week maternity leave? I’m not saying it’s great for women. But it’s even worse for men.

Childbirth and recovery are hard work, and the father does not have the same need to recover
No, but he’s stressed and traumatised and tired. He has a partner who is physically incapacitated and needs support to cope with this life changing event and accompanying physical injuries. Other family members are at work and definitely aren’t eligible for leave. The dad should be able to take time off to support the mum.

After a three day labour followed by surgery I was in no fit state to be left unattended. The hospital kicked me out less than 24 hours after surgery. I could hardly even stand up unaided, never mind look after a baby on my own and try to establish breastfeeding. I certainly couldn’t do laundry, grocery shopping, cooking, housework ... I was unbelievably tired and kept passing out. I needed help. Someone to cook, hoover, wash and iron the baby clothes, look after the baby so I could sleep. DH wanted to take unpaid emergency leave at the last minute because I was so poorly, but his employer said no and told him to hire a carer! As if we have the money. In the end my mum called in sick so she could look after me. DH, who hadn’t slept for three days, who had a seriously injured wife and was traumatised from watching me almost die, had to go to work. It’s shocking.

TBH the same applies in any situation where a person suffers an injury or gets sick and needs support. I'd find it strange if men were given extended paid time off work in order to care for a woman who is recovering from birth, when someone who has had emergency surgery, or a car crash, or cancer treatment is not given the same benefit.

Also your partner's employer was not entitled to turn down a request for emergency unpaid leave for dependents.

We took SPL, mostly because I'm the higher earner but neither of us was eligible for enhanced pay. So I had to go back to work after 6 months and handed over to my husband. Its definitely not just the dads who "can't afford" to take time off and I'd be really very cross if this was amended so men got full pay (or close to) but not equally amended for women.

There’s a new thread on shared parental leave www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/4253271-Guest-post-Shared-Parental-Leave-isn-t-working-At-all