Scrapping Shared Parental Leave

[EasterIssland]

It's in the news that it's been requested for it to be scrapped because it's not being used as needed and to get a new system in place.

I'm in between two minds about this, we took Shared Parental Leave with my son, our salaries were similar (I actually earned few ££ more than him), so we took 50/50 time . And I think it was good for my son to have 121 time with myself as well as 121 time with my DH and at the same time spending time together as a family. I'm spanish and right now in spain mum and dad can have 4 months off (which can be at the same time) when a baby is born, however, many dad's decide to delay a few months the shared bit so the baby doesnt go to nursery that early and many of them end up not using their bit as too busy at work (I've seen it a few times now)

I also take the new leave wouldn't be full salary, specially for the partner, as it'd be unfair for a mum to be circa £150/week salary whilst dad/other mum's are on full salary

So im unsure what needs changing so that the system works better.
Would 52 weeks for the mum at the current ML allowance + x amount of weeks at same salary really work? Unless the allowance is really increased to nearly match the salary I can't really see how this would work and how partners would decide to take more leave as it'd impact their home income

Would your partner have really taken chase of it if the allowance was higher ?

www.theguardian.com/money/2021/apr/26/shared-parental-leave-scrap-deeply-flawed-policy-say-campaigners

AIBU : A new system is needed and xyz should be done so it gets better
AINBU : I think the current system is good and a new one would not make partners taking more time off anyway

I support a use it or lose it policy, but not if it means that women have to give up their leave!!! Why should women be forced to go back to work after 6 months if they choose not to? How is that promoting equality. A lot of ebf babies are still breastfeeding round the clock at 6 months- that’s not right at all.

I simply would not give up any of my maternity leave, I suffered horribly with HG whilst pregnant which meant I lost a lot of weight and muscle tone, the first six months were spent sat on the sofa breastfeeding every three hours, by the time the baby was six months I’d just got used to breastfeeding and was able to go out and about and meet other mums, I needed the full 12 months to get my body strong again and actually enjoy time with the baby. We can’t pretend that what each parent puts in to creating a child is equal.

@Bizawit

I support a use it or lose it policy, but not if it means that women have to give up their leave!!! Why should women be forced to go back to work after 6 months if they choose not to? How is that promoting equality. A lot of ebf babies are still breastfeeding round the clock at 6 months- that’s not right at all.

How are women forced to go back to work after 6 months??? You have a chat to your husband, tell him you want to take the full year and is that ok with him not to take any time. Et voila! Done!

What happens to single parent families if a use it or lose it policy comes in where each parent gets 6 months or similar? If there isn't a mechanism for those families to have one person claim the entire leave then you will entrench inequality with single parent households having higher childcare costs than anyone else and their children missing out on bonding time with their only primary carer. They are already disadvantaged in lots of ways, but this would set them back further.

Also what happens with use it or lose it leave when only one parent is entitled to it? How does this policy intersect with job search requirements on UC? Would their be an equivalent to Maternity Allowance for fathers in similar circumstances?

Use it or lose it would be a good policy for a stable householdmwith 2 full time working parents. But there's loads of people in more precarious situations who would miss out.

@ShirleyPhallus yes agreed - I support the current parental leave. It’s just earlier in the thread some PP were saying that under the new proposals each partner would get 6 months non transferable leave. So women’s leave will be cut in half to give some to men? I prefer the shared parental arrangements where people get to pick. Unless they want to add paternity leave to the current allowance women get (best of all worlds).

@NuttyinNotts

What happens to single parent families if a use it or lose it policy comes in where each parent gets 6 months or similar? If there isn't a mechanism for those families to have one person claim the entire leave then you will entrench inequality with single parent households having higher childcare costs than anyone else and their children missing out on bonding time with their only primary carer. They are already disadvantaged in lots of ways, but this would set them back further.

Also what happens with use it or lose it leave when only one parent is entitled to it? How does this policy intersect with job search requirements on UC? Would their be an equivalent to Maternity Allowance for fathers in similar circumstances?

Use it or lose it would be a good policy for a stable householdmwith 2 full time working parents. But there's loads of people in more precarious situations who would miss out.

Completely agree.

I think that it needs to be better paid and for men's entitlement to time off to be entirely separate to women's. If a man is the main earner and not entitled to enhanced pay, and his partner is already on maternity pay, the prospect of taking that income hit is too much for most people.

We did SPL with DC2. DH had eight weeks off from when the baby was born. It was great for me as it meant he was there to support me and do a lot around the house/with DC1 during that time. I wasn't precious about him taking 'my' time off; I didn't love maternity leave with DC1 and we couldn't afford for one of us to have a full year off anyway. I had to take six weeks' unpaid leave and went back to work when DC2 was 8mo. And I carried on breastfeeding. DH was lucky as his company offered 12 weeks off at full pay for either parent. Without this we definitely couldn't have done it as I was only on statutory after the first six weeks.

Interesting. The system does need to change, it’s not at all attractive to families where the father significantly out earns the mother, and I don’t think I would want a setup where I would have to give up 6 months in order for my husband to have to take 6 months. I had about 10 months with each child, and I was sooo exhausted from the night feeds, I don’t think I could have handled that when they were between 6-10 months because I was too tired to function a lot of the time.

In summary, I’m glad I took almost a whole year with my children, I would be up for my husband to having more than the 2 weeks paternity leave but would want that not to be taken from mine.

My first delivery was awful and I was physically and mentally broken; having more help at home in the early days would have helped. But I also really value the friendships I made on maternity leave. I don’t think they would have been the same if I weren’t on my own during the week.

@ballroompink

I think that it needs to be better paid and for men's entitlement to time off to be entirely separate to women's. If a man is the main earner and not entitled to enhanced pay, and his partner is already on maternity pay, the prospect of taking that income hit is too much for most people.

We did SPL with DC2. DH had eight weeks off from when the baby was born. It was great for me as it meant he was there to support me and do a lot around the house/with DC1 during that time. I wasn't precious about him taking 'my' time off; I didn't love maternity leave with DC1 and we couldn't afford for one of us to have a full year off anyway. I had to take six weeks' unpaid leave and went back to work when DC2 was 8mo. And I carried on breastfeeding. DH was lucky as his company offered 12 weeks off at full pay for either parent. Without this we definitely couldn't have done it as I was only on statutory after the first six weeks.

Just out of curiosity, if your husband was entitled to 12 weeks off on full pay, why did he only take 8 of them?

As far as I can remember it was because that would have meant me going back to work when DC had just turned 7mo and I felt that from previous experience with EBF and weaning, 8mo would work better re: DC being more well-established on solids when he needed to go to childcare full time.

I breast fed and found it more difficult after going back to work, going back earlier might've meant I stopped earlier. I also had a physically very difficult and traumatic labour, I wasn't ready or willing to go back to work after 4/6 months, I was only just emerging from the fog and healing by 4 months. I wanted and needed the year. I also had a winter baby and loved the summer walking along the coast, baby groups in the park etc. I earn more than my husband, we saved up before hand and took the financial hit. DS got 4 weeks fully paid paternity and took 2 weeks leave immediately after, so we had the first six weeks together reduce was brilliant. He then compressed his hours over 4 days, do we got 3 days a week all together, which also gave me some time for myself. He maintained that working pattern after I went back to work so they still get one day a week just the two of them, as do I as I also compressed my hours with a different non working day.
Our employer has been fantastic and flexible and I think that's what's needed more than a change in shared parental leave.

I took 12, but I think the 9 months on some sort of pay that I had would have been enough for me. I trudged through the last 3 months unpaid with grim determination having exhausted every local baby group, park, National Trust property and shopping centre. DS was a winter baby so it was getting cold and wet again. Had we been able to share leave in some way we would have but DH's role was too new.

To be honest, we wouldn't have taken shared leave at the same time. I spent an awful lot of time sitting around breastfeeding and DH works from home anyway so was doing housework etc at lunch - I think we'd have got bored! They're way more interesting at 18 months and up.

This thread just shows how confusing and poorly understood the SPL system is - so many posters have misunderstood/ are unaware of how it works. I think that’s a big barrier to take-up. At my employer, which has enhanced SPL pay, a clear policy and a reasonably switched on HR department, lots of Dads have taken the opportunity - but I fully appreciate we are lucky to have those things. I also think that without the enhanced pay the take-up would be much lower because in many cases my colleague will be the higher earner in their family.

That being said, in principle I think having a flexible system where parents can share leave however suits them best is a good idea. I took 14 months off with all my children (by adding on annual leave to the 12 months maternity) and would have hated going back at six months - in fact I would probably not have gone back at all. I wouldn’t therefore want to see a system where the existing 12 months is split equally on a “use it or lose it” basis. Equally I appreciate that other women don’t enjoy mat leave/ are the higher earner and would rather have their partner take the lion’s share of the leave. That’s why flexibility is important.

Interestingly some PP have referred to our maternity leave provision being some of the worst in Europe. That’s actually a misconception. We have a very generous leave entitlement compared to many countries (in France, for example, maternity leave is four months). The issue is pay - as many others have pointed out, under the statutory scheme after the first six weeks you only get £150 per week which means that many can’t afford to stay off as long as they would like to. This is what needs to change - for mothers and for fathers.

I’m late to this thread. I think the campaigners are asking for individual leave entitlements instead of the messy shared leave, not ditching it entirely. They talk about women getting six months maternity leave and both parents getting six months parental leave each. This is a lot simpler and keeps mother’s existing 12 month leave entitlements. There’s a paper which talks about it maternityaction.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/An-equal-endeavour_-October-2020.pdf

Thanks for sharing @LukewarmCustard! On the basis of those proposals, sounds like it would be amazing.

[quote LukewarmCustard]I’m late to this thread. I think the campaigners are asking for individual leave entitlements instead of the messy shared leave, not ditching it entirely. They talk about women getting six months maternity leave and both parents getting six months parental leave each. This is a lot simpler and keeps mother’s existing 12 month leave entitlements. There’s a paper which talks about it maternityaction.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/An-equal-endeavour_-October-2020.pdf[/quote]
Thanks! I can read it now and I think it's more clear and I do agree with it, that it's a good proposal

"In addi>on to the six months of maternity leave reserved for the mother, and two weeks of birth (paternity) leave reserved for the father or other co-parent, our proposed 6+6+6 model includes six months of non-transferable parental leave
for each parent. TIn addi>on to the six months of maternity leave reserved for the mother, and two weeks of birth (paternity) leave reserved for the father or other co-parent, our proposed 6+6+6 model includes six months of non-transferable parental leave
for each parent. "

I also agree with them that the Statutory payment Is crap and should be enhanced by the government

[quote LukewarmCustard]I’m late to this thread. I think the campaigners are asking for individual leave entitlements instead of the messy shared leave, not ditching it entirely. They talk about women getting six months maternity leave and both parents getting six months parental leave each. This is a lot simpler and keeps mother’s existing 12 month leave entitlements. There’s a paper which talks about it maternityaction.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/An-equal-endeavour_-October-2020.pdf[/quote]
That's an interesting read. Particularly the statistics about how much maternity leave women currently take - an average of 39 weeks, with 55% of women taking less than 39 weeks. So the majority of fathers could actually take SPL without the mother having to change her plans, as a lot of leave entitlement is currently going completely unused. Question remains why fathers are not taking this.

However, if Maternity Action's plan for a future of equal parenting hinges on a total of 18 months leave paid at £300 a week for the entire period, they have just wasted their own time. That kind of increase from the current SPL pay is just not going to happen (and shouldn't happen - the disparity in state benefits between someone on mat leave and someone on universal credit would be awful). I wish they'd focused on putting together a realistic and achievable plan.

My DH didn’t take even a single day off work when our son was born. Not even the normal two weeks paternal leave, never mind a longer parental leave. Why? Because we have financial commitments based on him earning £1k per week and we couldn’t afford for him to drop to £150 per week statutory paternal pay. Losing almost £2k for two weeks leave would have left us unable to make our mortgage payment. If he’d taken a longer leave we’d have ended up losing the house. Meanwhile mums get an extended period off work on almost full pay. It’s totally unfair.

@Ariannah

My DH didn’t take even a single day off work when our son was born. Not even the normal two weeks paternal leave, never mind a longer parental leave. Why? Because we have financial commitments based on him earning £1k per week and we couldn’t afford for him to drop to £150 per week statutory paternal pay. Losing almost £2k for two weeks leave would have left us unable to make our mortgage payment. If he’d taken a longer leave we’d have ended up losing the house. Meanwhile mums get an extended period off work on almost full pay. It’s totally unfair.

I think this is really terribly planning on both your parts. Couldn’t he have taken annual leave which is paid?

He could have taken annual leave but they wanted advance notice, and he’s not psychic so he couldn’t guess when I was going to give birth. So he booked a holiday for my due date, and I went overdue so he was back at work before I gave birth.

That's an interesting read. Particularly the statistics about how much maternity leave women currently take - an average of 39 weeks, with 55% of women taking less than 39 weeks. So the majority of fathers could actually take SPL without the mother having to change her plans, as a lot of leave entitlement is currently going completely unused. Question remains why fathers are not taking this.

39 weeks is when statutory pay ends so there might be a lot of leave going unused but there's far less paid leave going spare. In families where the woman has gone back because she can't afford the unpaid portion it's unlikely that they can afford for her partner to be off without pay either.

@Ariannah

My DH didn’t take even a single day off work when our son was born. Not even the normal two weeks paternal leave, never mind a longer parental leave. Why? Because we have financial commitments based on him earning £1k per week and we couldn’t afford for him to drop to £150 per week statutory paternal pay. Losing almost £2k for two weeks leave would have left us unable to make our mortgage payment. If he’d taken a longer leave we’d have ended up losing the house. Meanwhile mums get an extended period off work on almost full pay. It’s totally unfair.

This really isn’t demonstrative of a systemic issue with how the leave works, or that what women get (which is very often not an extended period on almost full pay) is unfairly generous. This sounds like your husband just works for an exceptionally shitty employer (or is a bit shitty himself, or a combination of the two.)

This really isn’t demonstrative of a systemic issue with how the leave works, or that what women get (which is very often not an extended period on almost full pay) is unfairly generous
Women get 6 weeks on full pay. Men get 0 weeks on full pay. That’s a serious inequality. Men can’t afford to be off work and not get paid.

@EasterIssland

Ive got a question, if your partners would have had the chance of having 4-5-12 months off fully paid ... would you as a couple have gone for it? Without impacting the mum's leave at all. Howmany of your partners would have happily given up x months of their carrier for being at home. And would you have been happy to share the responsibility you've had whilst being the main carer ?

100% yes my DH would.

I favour 12 months for mums and additional 12 months which can only be used by dads. Pay is atrocious in the UK. Not sure what's financially workable, although covid does make you realise that lots of impossibles are not as impossible as they seem