To think marriage doesn't actually make much difference to most everyday women?

[Dojasayso]

Interested to hear other people's realistic opinion regarding marriage.

In principle marriage in practical terms means a joining of assets/finances and thus meaning in the case of divorce assets are split accordingly.

So therefore I understand on that basis it can be seen as 'protection' as often stated on mumsnet.

However in the real world of modern everyday people where both men and women typically work, I don't actually see how it makes such difference unless you are a high earning household.

Men still have to pay child maintenance if they're not the primary caregiver regardless of marriage.

Examples:

1. Many people rent so in the case of divorce then whoever can afford it will take over the tenancy and the other rents somewhere else. Either party may also be helped by housing benefit to top up rent if eligible. Child maintenance also issued to primary caregiver.

Marriage has made no difference?

1. Unmarried couple buy a house together, split up and sell property and split equity or someone buys the other out just like if divorcing? Someone can't run off with the equity of a jointly own home if you've bought a house together. Judges won't demand the party that moves out (usually man) pays the mortgage until children move out unless they are exceptionally high earning. Especially if that means that party cannot go on to buy another house themselves.

So again, marriage hasn't made much difference?

1. Unmarried couple, dad walks out on part time working mum.

Mum then claims tax credits and housing benefits and all other associated benefits which tops up wages. Sometimes even making the mum better off. If house is owned then as above, they split equity and mum still claims plus maintenance. She can either buy another house if she can afford it or rents with housing benefit element if low earning. Being married would have made no difference.

1. SAHM, dad walks out. Same as above, income support plus other benefits and child maintenance. If renting then housing benefit, if owned then equity split.

So unless you are hugh earning how are you protected? A man doesn't suddenly become a high earner when your married so that in the event of divorce you suddenly have money when you previously didn't.

There's also lot of two parent families that still need to claim top ups despite working. Being married then divorcing won't change that?

You get asked to name beneficiaries on pensions and life insurance when you sign up, so again marriage makes no difference there in the event of death. Unless again, one is a high earner with assets on top on pensions/insurances to be split.

And before ANYONE does the classic line of "medical decisions and next of kin if DP is in a coma/life support". Marriage makes NO difference!!
Unless you have Lasting Power of Attorney for someone you CANNOT make any decisions about someone incapacitated regardless if they are your husband/wife. It's a medical decision made by a doctor in regards to procedures. A doctor won't say "we won't perform surgery because his wife doesn't want us too". You have to have an advanced statement in place which is done through a solicitor and not marriage.

Anything else requires a "best interest decision" decided by health and social care professionals (usually social worker). Doesn't matter if your married or not. Unless you have LPA you cannot make decisions on any incapacitated persons behalf.
You don't need to be married to have LPA, you can make anyone your LPA.

Soo mumsnet, am I missing something?! Unless you are a high earner I don't see this magical "protection" thats talked about? Other than widows benefit? But you can only claim that for 6 months.

Please enlighten me to how marriage protects your average Joe family that claim tax credits/rents/jointly owns etc .

Disclaimer: I am not against marriage and infact plan on marrying my DP next year but for emotional/commitment reasons of wanting marriage and not practical/financial reasons.

VOTING:
YABU: marriage does benefit low/middle earners
YANBU: marriage doesn't make much difference to everyday people.

And my father was the one explaining us the maths and physics at school. There was nothing else to do around the house as far as I know.

my hsubands grandparents split up many many years ago when MIL was a teenager. They both went on to other relationships but never got around to divorcing. The grandfather had another child, created a business etc. When he died because they were still married all his assets went to the grandmother - eg his half of the business, any money in accounts in his name etc. Luckily she was a lovely women so signed away any rights to it but some people wouldnt and would have just taken it all.

A couple we know - not married and he is a SAHD. I dont know the ins and outs of thier finances and so assume house is in joint names etc but she has inherited a large property rental business from her father who has died and so that is in her name. if they split he would have no claim on those assets.

Being married means you dont have to make sure every single little thing is in joint names (and some things arent possible). its cheaper to pop to the registry office and get married than it is to employ a solicitor to change names into joint every time something changes with your finances!

I think a lot of time people are probably covered if they arent married and the other one dies - through wills etc but its when you split it comes complicated - its easy to change things and hide things away - if married you still have a claim on eg car that might be in sole name or ISA etc

[quote CovidSmart]@Increscendo, I don't think that's what Graphista said.
She said you are lucky to have BOTH an understanding partner AND an understanding employer....
In particular, an understanding employer!

Your father was awful tbh. Esp the part about sorting the dirty laundery in front of his dcs.[/quote]
I really fail to understand how my father was awful.

He was the one taking us to all play dates activities. And picking us up when we started going out with friends. My mother would prepare the meals if the play dates were at home.

My father taught us to swim and ride a bike. My mother taught us to read.

My mother would do the shopping list, my father and I went to buy it.

They both went together to parents evenings.

My father took us to the kids movies as my mother preferred staying home reading. But my mother took us shopping and then having a meal out.

They never shouted at each other. And all the family issues were discussed in a relaxed way (and my sister and I were present).

He just didn't think it was right that my mother didn't work (nor do I!)

My did together all the finances.

I haven't voted either way, but marriage is a neutral thing for women and generally positive for men when you look at health outcomes for single/married men and single/married women. It's much better for men than women. Health wise it makes no difference to women if they stay single.

I wasn't meaning at all he isn't similarly lucky to have you as a partner, clearly you have a good equal relationship.

But there is luck involved in this for many for a variety of reasons.

Eg

It must be the way I was brought up

Although I don't think that the way your father handled that situation was at all kind or appropriate. He made your mum go out to work - did he then ensure he pulled his weight with you children, housework and the mental load?

I was raised in an abusive household where dv among other things was prevalent, I left home at 17 to escape this and was vulnerable as a result. I was lucky that I'm academically able and so while working full time I attended college at evening classes to get my A levels and later went to uni as a mature student (if I'd attempted to go before mature student point I wouldn't have been able to access financial support for this so I had to wait - parents wouldn't and couldn't fund this)

Everyone has factors in their background that affect where they end up in life.

I pushed through for as long as I could, denying the trauma, trying to push it to the back of my mind only to succumb to a breakdown in my early 30's

Why not everyone sees it that way is beyond my comprehension.

What you're basically saying there is "I don't understand" often used on mn to actually mean "I don't approve"

as I have always understood how a healthy relationship works.

I don't agree that what you're describing is a healthy relationship

She said you are lucky to have BOTH an understanding partner AND an understanding employer....
In particular, an understanding employer!

Agree with this too. Most women don't have employers that treat them fairly wrt maternity and parenthood. Especially those in low paid jobs.

There was nothing else to do around the house as far as I know.

Wow! That's an odd attitude to have I can think of tons of things that need doing that wouldn't be done by a cleaner or involve driving or teaching maths and physics homework Etc that your mother was likely doing or responsible for that you seem to be oblivious to

If a man really is going to do 50% of the chores and childcare then I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable for him to expect his wife to work. I know people will pop up and say there’s no comparison but as a woman I wouldn’t want to be the breadwinner with a SAHD (or a SAHM, in my case it’s possible that I’d have a relationship with either)

@Graphista

I wasn't meaning at all he isn't similarly lucky to have you as a partner, clearly you have a good equal relationship.

But there is luck involved in this for many for a variety of reasons.

Eg

It must be the way I was brought up

Although I don't think that the way your father handled that situation was at all kind or appropriate. He made your mum go out to work - did he then ensure he pulled his weight with you children, housework and the mental load?

I was raised in an abusive household where dv among other things was prevalent, I left home at 17 to escape this and was vulnerable as a result. I was lucky that I'm academically able and so while working full time I attended college at evening classes to get my A levels and later went to uni as a mature student (if I'd attempted to go before mature student point I wouldn't have been able to access financial support for this so I had to wait - parents wouldn't and couldn't fund this)

Everyone has factors in their background that affect where they end up in life.

I pushed through for as long as I could, denying the trauma, trying to push it to the back of my mind only to succumb to a breakdown in my early 30's

Why not everyone sees it that way is beyond my comprehension.

What you're basically saying there is "I don't understand" often used on mn to actually mean "I don't approve"

as I have always understood how a healthy relationship works.

I don't agree that what you're describing is a healthy relationship

She said you are lucky to have BOTH an understanding partner AND an understanding employer....
In particular, an understanding employer!

Agree with this too. Most women don't have employers that treat them fairly wrt maternity and parenthood. Especially those in low paid jobs.

There was nothing else to do around the house as far as I know.

Wow! That's an odd attitude to have I can think of tons of things that need doing that wouldn't be done by a cleaner or involve driving or teaching maths and physics homework Etc that your mother was likely doing or responsible for that you seem to be oblivious to

If anything, my father did a little bit more. Other than house chores (which mainly were done by the cleaner), school stuff (parents evenings, homework, etc) that was mainly my dad's job, and spending time with us (both did equally), there are nothing else to do. Or else we are neglecting something important at the moment!

The finances were done equally by the two of them. They both went together to the bank (I grew up in the 90s so no online banking).

All family holidays were the four of us together, my parents never travel without each other.

Please tell me what else is there to do as a family because my partner and I are not doing anything else (although unfortunately we don't have a daily cleaner so we do that ourselves).

Most days trips out (playground etc) were only with my father (my mother was a home bird).

I must be missing something extremely important now!

@TedMullins

If a man really is going to do 50% of the chores and childcare then I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable for him to expect his wife to work. I know people will pop up and say there’s no comparison but as a woman I wouldn’t want to be the breadwinner with a SAHD (or a SAHM, in my case it’s possible that I’d have a relationship with either)

Exactly. That was my father's point. He did, if anything, a bit more than 50%

@TedMullins

If a man really is going to do 50% of the chores and childcare then I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable for him to expect his wife to work. I know people will pop up and say there’s no comparison but as a woman I wouldn’t want to be the breadwinner with a SAHD (or a SAHM, in my case it’s possible that I’d have a relationship with either)

Me neither, not what I would ever want in a partner.

My DH shares the load, he has to as the second adult in the family. Likewise, I take my share of the financial load as don’t subscribe to the men have to do that alone theory. I’d hate to be reliant on someone else paying for my every need.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

Same here. I make more money than my partner and we could manage (albeit less comfortably) on my salary.

But I do 50% of childcare and don't want to be replaced by him even if he wanted to take over. So I wouldn't want to be the sole breadwinner. What if I lose my job tomorrow? That would be a lot of pressure on me!

I grew up in the 90s so no online banking

This did make me smile! I grew up in the 80's I remember what a huge "tech advance" cash points were!

Cleaners I think don't do the general tidying, laundry, any ironing (admittedly I quit this when dd left school and I no longer had uniform to worry about!), dishes

In terms of other tasks off the top of my head making and managing medical appointments, childcare when children are sick including any necessary night wakings, managing admin (car admin - mot etc, any insurance stuff etc)

Was the cleaner daily? Ahh I see yes. Well that's not really common is it ?

All family holidays were the four of us together, my parents never travel without each other

My parents were the same but mainly as dad wouldn't hardly let mum out of his sight

@Graphista

I grew up in the 90s so no online banking

This did make me smile! I grew up in the 80's I remember what a huge "tech advance" cash points were!

Cleaners I think don't do the general tidying, laundry, any ironing (admittedly I quit this when dd left school and I no longer had uniform to worry about!), dishes

In terms of other tasks off the top of my head making and managing medical appointments, childcare when children are sick including any necessary night wakings, managing admin (car admin - mot etc, any insurance stuff etc)

Was the cleaner daily? Ahh I see yes. Well that's not really common is it ?

All family holidays were the four of us together, my parents never travel without each other

My parents were the same but mainly as dad wouldn't hardly let mum out of his sight

My father was definitely not controlling. He was the one taking us everywhere while my mother (who is a bit of an introvert) enjoyed staying home.

All the tidying, washing and ironing was done by the cleaner.

Car maintenance was done by my father as the only driver.

My mother was our doctor, we were lucky that we never needed surgeries or hospital stays, but she was herself a doctor so we didn't need any extra appointments. She just didn't like her job, that's it.

It is true that he never managed in the kitchen, which is quite sexist and I wouldn't like my partner to do the same. But he honestly did more than most other fathers I knew.

I'm advising a case right now where marriage very much matters...but isn't there.

Woman and man. Man a bit feckless, woman has supported man for almost 25 years and has been the driving force behind every good decision. Couple is an excellent couple with wonderful children.

Man has inherited. Woman and family moved into this home. Lost their lifetime tenancy in the process.

Man has decided to sell. Woman will be homeless...again. No rights to any of the income from sale or the home.

They've only been housing secure for about 2 years. Woman is going to be housing insecure again.

If this woman and man were married the man would not be able to sell the house out from under the woman's feet, it would be a joint asset and the women would have some protection at least.

My mum told me to never get married! Make your own money and keep it

Worked out very well for me 😀 own a flat that I rent out, have my business, share a house with my ex obvs he doesn't live here, maintenance, etc we have a great life
He didn't have a barrel to hold me over and all the better for it !!! Have friends going through 2/3 years of absolute hell to get divorced

Complete bollox OP... you have NO understanding of the benefits system (DWP for 19 years and DHSS before that for 7)

Marriage MATTERS !!

My mum married twice and worked full-time throughout. She was a teacher and had to bring in my younger brother to school when he was a toddler! Couldn’t do that now She paid a local old woman to mind us who took us to the park, come rain or shine, and read the paper all day while we mucked around.

My Dad had a good job, earned but money went through his fingers so we were quite poor. That’s why my mum worked, she paid the rent and food. I think my Dad spent it on his affairs. I think my mum would have loved to have been a SAHM for a few years, she just loved being a mum. I then took over looking after my little brother when I was only 10 years old. I’d pick him up from school every day and make him tea.

With my first child I did the same as my mum, worked like a dog really and juggled everything, main carer, main earner. So second time around, I swore that I’d either share fairly, or be the main carer. And it was lucky I was prepared to do that as my child turned out to have high needs and you only get a small window of opportunity to give the best support.

In my example above both parties are low earners. Always have been and always will be. I'm so worried about the woman now.

@Graphista

I grew up in the 90s so no online banking

This did make me smile! I grew up in the 80's I remember what a huge "tech advance" cash points were!

Cleaners I think don't do the general tidying, laundry, any ironing (admittedly I quit this when dd left school and I no longer had uniform to worry about!), dishes

In terms of other tasks off the top of my head making and managing medical appointments, childcare when children are sick including any necessary night wakings, managing admin (car admin - mot etc, any insurance stuff etc)

Was the cleaner daily? Ahh I see yes. Well that's not really common is it ?

All family holidays were the four of us together, my parents never travel without each other

My parents were the same but mainly as dad wouldn't hardly let mum out of his sight

Plus honestly, all the thing that you are listing, unless I am missing out something don't take long. My partner and I manage to do all of them and work full time.

Car maintenance is what, once/twice a year?

Medical appointments (again, for non special needs children) are rare, and we manage them working full time. With our 2,5 years old we have been a handful of times.

When children are ill they should count on both parents. I did that, and do that with my own children.

I unfortunately have to iron (or my partner!) but we do so the night before and takes us 20 mins, while talking or watching something.

All admin we do it in 5 mins and not very often (thanks for online banking!)

@Increscendo I wasn't saying your father was controlling I was saying mine definitely was/is

Plus honestly, all the thing that you are listing, unless I am missing out something don't take long. My partner and I manage to do all of them and work full time.

If the family are away from home most of the time there's less mess being made at home of course. I definitely noticed this when I went from working full time to being unable to work and being home all the time. Suddenly much more housework

Yes all the odd bits might take 5/10/20 mins each but those minutes add up overall

Agree online banking is a godsend I love it! And I also love a good spreadsheet which is how I forecast and manage my budget

Again you're lucky if your man does 50% or more of sick child care, ime many men don't/won't do this

DP and I aren’t married,we don’t want to be having been married and divorced before.

I had mat leave but went back to work and have continued my career,and I will encourage my daughter to be as financially independent as she can.

I bought this house before I met DP and it is in my name only. I have done a Will which stated that if I die first he can live here or sell and move,the house will be inherited by the children when he dies.

I don’t think relying on a partner financially completely is a good idea. It should be a partnership.

The whole reason marriage came into existence was to protect women and the main reason women need protecting is because we can become pregnant and give birth to children who then need to be cared for and raised.

Now that contraception and abortion are readily available, we think we are in control of our childbearing but no contraception method is foolproof and not everyone is comfortable having an abortion. And it's still overwhelmingly down to the woman to take charge of these things.

During pregnancy and while we have a young child, we are vulnerable. Childcare responsibilities limit career options. As a single parent I can say yes you can manage on your own but it's not easy.

Don't be fooled into thinking women don't need the protections of marriage any more. The child maintenance and welfare systems are a safety net - marriage offers better protections to most women. Of course it puts men on the back foot - explaining why they can be less keen. C'est la vie...

@bathsh3ba

The whole reason marriage came into existence was to protect women and the main reason women need protecting is because we can become pregnant and give birth to children who then need to be cared for and raised.

Now that contraception and abortion are readily available, we think we are in control of our childbearing but no contraception method is foolproof and not everyone is comfortable having an abortion. And it's still overwhelmingly down to the woman to take charge of these things.

During pregnancy and while we have a young child, we are vulnerable. Childcare responsibilities limit career options. As a single parent I can say yes you can manage on your own but it's not easy.

Don't be fooled into thinking women don't need the protections of marriage any more. The child maintenance and welfare systems are a safety net - marriage offers better protections to most women. Of course it puts men on the back foot - explaining why they can be less keen. C'est la vie...

I mean, marriage came into existence when women couldn’t buy houses or open bank accounts or even work without a man’s position. None of those things apply now so it’s not the necessity it once was (and that’s a good thing!)

For me it was never a choice or a decision. I always loved the idea of marriage. I've never looked at or viewed marriage as security or beneficial for financial or legal reasons. To me marriage should be about love and telling your partner how much you love them. It's the vows you make. When we got married I was a full time student and my husband worked for minimum wage, so it was never ever about financial protection or anything else. We had nothing, but we also had everything because we had each other, and our son or daughter on the way.

In fact it meant so much to me that I first met my husband end of April 2014. We became a couple 9th may 2014. We decided to start trying for a baby in July 2014, we moved in together in October 2014, I got pregnant in November 2014, we found out I was pregnant 19th December 2014. We got engaged 13th January 2015, and got married 9th April 2015. Baby was due 30th August 2015, was actually born on 5th September 2015.

So we had been together exactly 11 months the day we got married. I know it's very quick, being married and expecting a baby within less than a year of being together, but it worked for us. We had discussed marriage and both agreed it was what we wanted, but we weren't officially engaged. But when we found out I was pregnant we both knew it was important to us to be married before the baby was born, and I didn’t want to be showing if possible, so we made sure we were. It was perfect.

Some people might think we only got married because I was pregnant, but that was never the case at all. We did it because I wanted us to all have the same name on as much of the paperwork as possible and especially on the birth certificate, it meant a lot to me. In fact my first appointment after the wedding was the second scan. We made sure we had plenty of time before the appointment so I could get my name changed on the system before my appointment. I did. That was obviously the first time I’d been called by my married name, I loved hearing it and seeing it on the paperwork and especially on the scan photos.

I know for a lot of people it doesn’t matter and isn’t really that important, and I mean no judgement at all. But for me it was very important and it did mean a lot.

@happymummy12345

For me it was never a choice or a decision. I always loved the idea of marriage. I've never looked at or viewed marriage as security or beneficial for financial or legal reasons. To me marriage should be about love and telling your partner how much you love them. It's the vows you make. When we got married I was a full time student and my husband worked for minimum wage, so it was never ever about financial protection or anything else. We had nothing, but we also had everything because we had each other, and our son or daughter on the way.

In fact it meant so much to me that I first met my husband end of April 2014. We became a couple 9th may 2014. We decided to start trying for a baby in July 2014, we moved in together in October 2014, I got pregnant in November 2014, we found out I was pregnant 19th December 2014. We got engaged 13th January 2015, and got married 9th April 2015. Baby was due 30th August 2015, was actually born on 5th September 2015.

So we had been together exactly 11 months the day we got married. I know it's very quick, being married and expecting a baby within less than a year of being together, but it worked for us. We had discussed marriage and both agreed it was what we wanted, but we weren't officially engaged. But when we found out I was pregnant we both knew it was important to us to be married before the baby was born, and I didn’t want to be showing if possible, so we made sure we were. It was perfect.

Some people might think we only got married because I was pregnant, but that was never the case at all. We did it because I wanted us to all have the same name on as much of the paperwork as possible and especially on the birth certificate, it meant a lot to me. In fact my first appointment after the wedding was the second scan. We made sure we had plenty of time before the appointment so I could get my name changed on the system before my appointment. I did. That was obviously the first time I’d been called by my married name, I loved hearing it and seeing it on the paperwork and especially on the scan photos.

I know for a lot of people it doesn’t matter and isn’t really that important, and I mean no judgement at all. But for me it was very important and it did mean a lot.

This is great for you but in a factual and legal sense I’m afraid it’s bollocks. Marriage, whether you like it or not, IS a legal contract that affects your finances. Whether or not you have a big ceremony and declare your love in front of the world is neither here nor there. Marriage also does not automatically change your name, nor is there a requirement to do this. Even if you’re not bothered about the legal aspects you’d do well to know what they actually are.

That was obviously the first time I’d been called by my married name, I loved hearing it and seeing it on the paperwork and especially on the scan photos

Do you not think your husband would have liked the same experience of changing his name?

Seeing his married name on paperwork and hearing people say it?

Do you think he’s sad not to have changed his name like you did?