To think marriage doesn't actually make much difference to most everyday women?

[Dojasayso]

Interested to hear other people's realistic opinion regarding marriage.

In principle marriage in practical terms means a joining of assets/finances and thus meaning in the case of divorce assets are split accordingly.

So therefore I understand on that basis it can be seen as 'protection' as often stated on mumsnet.

However in the real world of modern everyday people where both men and women typically work, I don't actually see how it makes such difference unless you are a high earning household.

Men still have to pay child maintenance if they're not the primary caregiver regardless of marriage.

Examples:

1. Many people rent so in the case of divorce then whoever can afford it will take over the tenancy and the other rents somewhere else. Either party may also be helped by housing benefit to top up rent if eligible. Child maintenance also issued to primary caregiver.

Marriage has made no difference?

1. Unmarried couple buy a house together, split up and sell property and split equity or someone buys the other out just like if divorcing? Someone can't run off with the equity of a jointly own home if you've bought a house together. Judges won't demand the party that moves out (usually man) pays the mortgage until children move out unless they are exceptionally high earning. Especially if that means that party cannot go on to buy another house themselves.

So again, marriage hasn't made much difference?

1. Unmarried couple, dad walks out on part time working mum.

Mum then claims tax credits and housing benefits and all other associated benefits which tops up wages. Sometimes even making the mum better off. If house is owned then as above, they split equity and mum still claims plus maintenance. She can either buy another house if she can afford it or rents with housing benefit element if low earning. Being married would have made no difference.

1. SAHM, dad walks out. Same as above, income support plus other benefits and child maintenance. If renting then housing benefit, if owned then equity split.

So unless you are hugh earning how are you protected? A man doesn't suddenly become a high earner when your married so that in the event of divorce you suddenly have money when you previously didn't.

There's also lot of two parent families that still need to claim top ups despite working. Being married then divorcing won't change that?

You get asked to name beneficiaries on pensions and life insurance when you sign up, so again marriage makes no difference there in the event of death. Unless again, one is a high earner with assets on top on pensions/insurances to be split.

And before ANYONE does the classic line of "medical decisions and next of kin if DP is in a coma/life support". Marriage makes NO difference!!
Unless you have Lasting Power of Attorney for someone you CANNOT make any decisions about someone incapacitated regardless if they are your husband/wife. It's a medical decision made by a doctor in regards to procedures. A doctor won't say "we won't perform surgery because his wife doesn't want us too". You have to have an advanced statement in place which is done through a solicitor and not marriage.

Anything else requires a "best interest decision" decided by health and social care professionals (usually social worker). Doesn't matter if your married or not. Unless you have LPA you cannot make decisions on any incapacitated persons behalf.
You don't need to be married to have LPA, you can make anyone your LPA.

Soo mumsnet, am I missing something?! Unless you are a high earner I don't see this magical "protection" thats talked about? Other than widows benefit? But you can only claim that for 6 months.

Please enlighten me to how marriage protects your average Joe family that claim tax credits/rents/jointly owns etc .

Disclaimer: I am not against marriage and infact plan on marrying my DP next year but for emotional/commitment reasons of wanting marriage and not practical/financial reasons.

VOTING:
YABU: marriage does benefit low/middle earners
YANBU: marriage doesn't make much difference to everyday people.

There should be more emphasis in men taking up their fair share of childcare, not in marriage IMO.
I think we probably agree more than disagree. I’m all in favour of men taking more share of childcare, and doing it as well as the other.

@KarmaNoMore

Yes, you will say no, but then you notice your kid is not doing well, they need more attention, someone needs to pick them up, husband earns more, you will soon realise you are slowing down in your career because he won’t run out of a meeting to pick them up if they feel unwell, he will insist in traveling and having the flexibility of longer hours or traveling, and the one that picks up the bill is the woman.

Obviously, there are cases when a man fall himself in this scenario but it is far more common for women to be disadvantaged in the relationship.

You set up rules. Nursery calls us both when our daughter is unwell. When it is not 'my turn' I don't check up my phone often, as I am busy at work. Our children get our full attention when we are at home. When they are at school/nursery there is not much I can do anyway.

If the husband has to travel, he should set up some sort of help for his wife is she is working.

If he doesn't do any of the above, why would anyone stay with him? And if the couple breaks up because he doesn't do his fair share of childcare, either he will have to if they arrange 50/50 childcare, or pay towards child maintenance. Probably that is something that should improve. As I understand, CM payments are not enough in most cases.

@Rejoiningperson

There should be more emphasis in men taking up their fair share of childcare, not in marriage IMO. I think we probably agree more than disagree. I’m all in favour of men taking more share of childcare, and doing it as well as the other.

I agree. And I also understand that in some cases, the 'boyfriend' was the perfect man, but changes completely once they marry/have children. That's very unfair. Probably children maintenance payments should be better.

We should educate our sons and daughters to understand that children is a huge commitment, and they will be fully responsible for them.

YABU

As a divorcee and neither of us were high earners indeed I was a Sahm at the time I can assure you it makes life easier in several ways.

1 - clear, legally defined division of any assets. In our case not much in way of assets, small amount of savings and a car. Both of which ex grabbed in immediate aftermath of split and which if I weren't married I'd not have been able to seek redress on that. I also have a claim on his pension (which I haven't pursued for personal reasons, but he doesn't know that)

2 - unpopular to say so but it does make it easier and faster to process child maintenance claim

3 - whether people like to admit it or not there is still stigma and prejudice towards women who are mothers who never married. I've seen this and experienced it simply by virtue I style myself "Mrs ex's surname" still and dds surname is same as ex's whereas my sister and others I know who never married and style themselves as "miss" and have different surnames to their children (in my sisters case 3 different surnames in one household) have been and continue to be treated appallingly mainly by civil servants. It's not right and it's not fair but it very much still happens. One friend after a year of this crap changed her name by deed poll to her dcs surname (ex wouldn't allow her to change dcs name) and styles herself as "Mrs" even though she's never married. She is now treated far more respectfully.

4 I'm not an expert on this as have never owned property but I believe there are different codicils in home ownership that can mean that if a couple aren't married and split then one party can exclude the other from the property and the equity? Also when one dies (and everyone dies at some point) then I believe the value of the property can become problematic in terms of inheritance tax if the couple aren't married?

5 if unmarried and the main/higher/only earner dies then I believe currently (this is in process of changing) surviving partner is not entitled to bereavement benefits and support

6 in terms of beneficiary status, if unmarried these can be changed without the potential surviving partner even knowing let alone able to prevent. If married, even if dying partner changed name of beneficiary then a spouse has the potential ability to challenge this after the other spouses death

7 regarding medical decisions you're right to a degree but when it's a close call, doctors will err towards giving weight to the closest LEGALLY DEFINABLE relationship to the patient - if only to cover their own arses!

Your ignorance about the welfare system and assuming it's the default to relationship breakdown makes your entire OP rather nonsensical. As it is is alarmingly simplistic

Strongly agree with this too. In general it's become much harder to claim benefits and more proof required - a divorce is clear proof of a relationship ending. Much harder to prove a cohabiting relationship has definitively ended - I know people who've had trouble claiming because of this.

Men still have to pay child maintenance if they're not the primary caregiver regardless of marriage

😂😂

In real terms the cms are pretty useless! Millions of men literally walk away from their children and pay sod all towards them. It's marginally easier though to push the cms if you were previously married to the father.

Two obvious examples where marriage protects - regardless of existing circumstances - are chronic illness or a disabled child.

Yep!

I honestly don't see how having children impacts women more than men.

Oh come off it! It's well known that it does! Pregnancy and mat leave alone have an impact even if the father thereafter genuinely splits childcare 50/50! You sound so naive. Is there any man or even woman without children at your workplace started the same time as you in the same role? Is their pay the same as yours? Are you now the same rank/status? Also does the father of your children take the same time off for sports days, parents evenings, kids being sick or needing medical appointments as you?

I now earn more on four days than I did full time when I first got pregnant

Do you know how much someone working 5 days at the same place who hasn't taken mat leave and started at the same time at same level now earns? How long ago did you first get pregnant?

Mat leave twice was a minor blip in my pension contributions and yes I’ve taken a 20% pay cut by working four day’s

And if you'd not had dc neither of these would be true so having dc HAS affected your income and pension.

I understand your situation, but you have to agree that most people don't work abroad for half the year

Actually if you take account of all military, mod civil servants, oil workers, political civil servants working in embassies etc I believe the number of employees in the Uk who work outside the Uk for a significant part of the year is around 40%? - quick google shows around 47% and rising.

Also, it is still possible (in most cases) to use childcare to allow you to work.

Well there speaks someone who's never had to find a job that works around childcare AND pays enough to pay for it!

As a single mother this factor severely curtailed my options. Reasonably priced childcare is mostly only available "office hours" that's mon - fri 0800-1800 in the vast majority of cases and with penalties for late pickup. Most jobs are no longer "office hours" even office based ones very often expect evening overtime and/or weekends

It’s like insurance. It doesn’t have any impact on everyday life. But when the shit hits the fan, you’re bloody glad you’ve got it.

Exactly!

Employers don't give a shit about employees personal lives that's why legislation for something as basically decent as sick leave has had to be brought in. Seems to me many on this thread are shockingly ignorant of how hard it was to GET maternity leave and equal pay legislation - we STILL don't have equal pay nothing close!

All medical decisions are made by medical staff

Not true. Organ donation, decisions about life support continuing are up to whoever is deemed to be next of kin. And leaving it thinking an lpa might be useful or possible is ridiculous as in most cases where such decisions need to be made it's due to an accident or sudden incapacitating illness where the patient isn't conscious to assign someone! I'm an ex nurse I've witnessed a number of situations where things have been very much not clear cut legally and it's a nightmare for all concerned!

We need to make CMS like council tax- possible jail time if not paid.

Totally agree and also need to be higher amounts especially where the dc are still of an age to require childcare

have 2K in savings

Showing your privilege a bit there op.

We had less than £2k in savings when we split, it still made a significant difference/benefit to me to get that money that I was due. It came at a critical time in fact and prevented homelessness

Where are you getting all these 'top ups'? Do you realise how punitive and paltry UC is? Or LHA caps?

Yea I'm wondering same. Op clearly has zero actual lived experience of the benefit system, certainly not recently.

@Rewis But I don't really understand the other risks. Maybe I'm just very naive.

If you mean in terms of getting a mortgage I believe it's probably due to the fact that statistically unmarried couples are more likely to separate and that can have a negative impact on the mortgage being paid.

Most people in my social circle have kids but are not married. Some have broken up but there has yet to happen any disaster cause they were not married

Unless you are privy to the finer details of their finances you can't know this. Few people advertise their disasters.

@willithappen not just a "piece of paper" would you say that of a cheque worth even £1k only? Hell even £50?! It's a legally binding contract. As for the wasting money thing - it's possible to marry for less than £200 in the Uk and could potentially save you/benefit you to the tune of many £1000's depending on circumstances.

If it didn’t mean anything there wouldn’t be so many women posting on here insisting it’s essential the laws are changed to give non-married couples the same rights as married ones because a split left them in the financial shit. But they do.

Absolutely!

Also many women posting THINKING common law marriage is a real legal thing - it's not!

@osbertthesyrianhamster excellent points that I hadn't thought of as while I am currently on benefits I'm single and have been for a long time so I'm not fully cognisant of the rules there

@TedMullins victims of domestic abuse still (at least for now who knows how much longer with this govt!) have access to legal aid for divorce.

@TheNextCaroleMiddleton on these threads I usually cite the example of a relative of mine, unmarried and cohabiting, Sahm with 2 dc. Partner died very unexpectedly and with no provisos in place. Everything financial was in his sole name even the current account. She was turfed out of the family home by the legal nok (his parents who she had previously always thought she got along well with, no indication otherwise) and they also took possession/were given all his cash, death in service payment and other benefits. She had to move to a rough area, move the kids schools, go back to work full time while she and the dc very much still grieving it was a mess! As far as I’m aware little has changed for women who may be in the position prior to his death that she was.

Actually I’ve just thought of a good way to illustrate - I don’t know ANY lawyers or accountants that aren’t married and I know several of both and of all ages too. They all highly recommend that women in particular those planning to have dc get married. I think that says it all really.

Yes you have more protection but if that's the only reason people actually get married that's quite sad really isn't it. marriage for Romantic love alone is a very recent cultural fallacy

You don't accept it? what does that mean in real terms though? By that point the child already exists and nobody can force another adult to be a decent, involved and responsible parent if they don’t want to be! It’s simply not possible! And there’s also not always “red flags”. My ex and I were together a long time before having planned dd, while we were still together he was a loving, involved and responsible parent. Pretty much as soon as we split (his affair) he became almost completely disinterested in dd. Total about turn! And there was and is nothing I can do about that. So I ask again HOW does a mother “not accept” this? There are many many threads posted by ops with lazy, entitled, disinterested in the baby “fathers” begging for ideas on how to get him to change - there is no solution to this once the child is born.

Sometimes there are red flags the mother has ignored but often there’s no indication he will be like this.

Regarding Sahm and part time working mums who are doing so against their best interests do you really think they KNOW its against their best interests? Very very rarely the case. Far more common that they (falsely?) believe or even have been promised that it will never be a problem.

My ex was extremely vocally against dead beat dads, he was the youngest of 4 of a second marriage himself, 6 dc in total. His dad continued to pay the mortgage on his previous/1st wife’s home until youngest was 18 and a decent amount of cm totally voluntarily as he simply is a decent man and saw that was the decent thing to do. His dc from that marriage floated between the 2 houses happily which were one street apart (by his design) and his 1st wife even attended our wedding and was treated by the children of his 2nd marriage as an “auntie”. Ex absolutely slated anyone we knew who was an arse over cm or seeing their kids etc. Yet as soon as we split he became exactly the same! It was so out of character his family thought he was having a breakdown (he wasn’t). I’ve actually had his parents apologise to me for his behaviour on more than one occasion.

How exactly is anyone supposed to just “not accept that”?

Bringing up children is an amazing job and it should be valued. It should be valued financially, emotionally, professionally even. That is some of the heart of this debate. Many here are devaluing the role of parent and mother. I believe that valuing mother’s bringing up their children is an extremely supportive feminist issue.

Totally agree

It is not in his core to pull one over on me

This is what I, his parents and his 3 siblings AND their partners and spouses believed of my ex too - we were all wrong! Many threads on relationships board by women who also wrongly thought the same

I completely disagree with the last bit. I don’t think cohabiting partners should have any protections or rights over the other’s assets at all! If they’ve chosen not to marry, those terms shouldn’t be forced on them. I’d never move in with anyone if this became law.

I also agree with this. At what point and defined and proven by who/what should cohabiting couples get these rights? Wide open to abuse!

either he will have to if they arrange 50/50 childcare, or pay towards child maintenance. Probably that is something that should improve. As I understand, CM payments are not enough in most cases.

You clearly have very little experience or knowledge of what usually happens with childcare and maintenance after a couple separates. There is absolutely no way in Uk law to MAKE a non resident parent provide care, there’s precious little use made of the laws supposedly in place to MAKE them pay maintenance, and the legal amounts are paltry even when they do.

Very thorough response @Graphista and many good points. I can see you’ve experienced much of this first hand.

Oh my god though your Ex sounds just like mine! He was the epitomy of an amazing Dad. He had 60% care of his kids. Also high level job. Was to be honest a better parent than his Ex. Went to every parent teacher meeting. Sorted out healthcare. Paid his Ex well in maintenance and bought her a house. Honestly didn’t see him trying to get the very least maintenance to me when we split (with a disabled child) and refuse to pay for any of his healthcare. Did not see that coming.

@Graphista

I have recently been promoted whilst on maternity leave. My partner will take 6 months of parental leave after my 6 months.

We have our last names combined for our children. I would never change my last name.

Of course we both go to medical appointments, pick them up from nursery, etc. I would refuse to be the only one doing that.

The only thing that I agree with, is that CM should be better.

Other than that, I would be far worse if I got married.

@Increscendo you sound great. Really together and a great role model for your kids. I could have been you in different circumstances.

I just think most women aren’t able to be you and it’s really not their fault or for lack of starting a career etc. It’s the fundamentals and low value of being the main carer to children combined with many men who cannot be ‘forced’ to take up the slack (like my Ex who just refused health appointments & now refuses to pay even half of them, of course he wouldn’t admit that - he tells others I am completely capable and that he can’t pay for healthcare as it’s a blank cheque... que nodding heads of agreement).

It’s still a tough misogynistic world out there - but I’m very glad that some have made it! All power to you I say.

I agree not everyone can be like @Increscendo (who absolutely does sound great) for reasons entirely beyond their control like structural and societal misogyny, partners who don’t live up to the promise of doing 50% of the caring, or a child with extra needs.

But. I do think there is an element of personal responsibility involved in some cases. As much as it’s not PC to say so, how many women are actually as assertive as Increscendo and if not, why not? How many couples really sit down and discuss the practicalities of having a child? I’m not disputing there is clearly privilege involved with this poster’s job which I’m assuming is well-paid and fairly senior (apologies if I have that wrong). It’s easier to lay down the law about your boundaries when you can afford decent childcare if the partner does turn out to be a useless sexist waste of space. A lack of money, though, doesn’t mean there can’t be equality in a relationship where parenting is concerned, but it does mean in-depth discussions about how to organise it.

It depends I think on whether the couple were living together before the marriage. I imagine for those who do , it more of a legal formality with very little changing. Especially if they already had children together before the marriage.

I may or may not get married again in the future. I shall never again be a Mrs. Eurgh!

I haven't read all the thread. @Graphista, you really need a publisher .

However looking back over 30 years, DH and I got married because we wanted a permanent union (and yes he is a lawyer) principally because we were in love and part of that commitment was a future with a binding and legal framework.

Add in that we were early 30s and at that time I had assets and he didn't, although he had very good prospects, but in the beginning the capital was mine and I earned about three times more than him the year we met. We married 2 years later and we had a pre nup to secure my capital. Even before we were engaged we established that we shared politics, attitude to life and money, morals, religion broadly and knew we both wanted at least three children - possibly four or more. (Sadly the last bit didn't happen because we had an almighty struggle to produce two).

But the bit I haven't skimmed on this thread although it might be there is the bit about the meaning of and sanctity of marriage. We had a church wedding because DH wanted it. He was brought up as a practicing Christian; I wasn't. But actually when it came to it, making our vows before God (and we changed the order): for mutual comfort, for the procreation of children and for the avoidance of sin together with the blessing, was deeply moving and spiritual and turned a transaction into something far far greater than the legal undertaking. Indeed it provided the start of my relationship with my faith.

You're wrong about family having no say if the person lacks capacity, being married makes a big difference and the view of husband and wife is extremely important. Obviously the doctor makes the final medical decision but if family disagree and the person lacks capacity it could end up having to go the court LPA or not. It's a very complicated area of law. Causes problems the other way too, if you're relationship is over , you're separated but not divorced and loose capacity your estranged husband or wife holds a lot of power!

@Rejoiningperson

Your ex sounds like a nasty man, the sacrifices you are making for your children will pay off (unfortunately, not financially). CM should be definitely better enforced.

I read often on MN that couples are a team because they are married. I would say that my partner and I are a very strong team despite not being married. To me, that means respecting each other. He doesn't have to do more childcare because I bring more money home, and his meetings are as important as mine. Not that I would want it any other way, I want to be a present parent to my children!

It is probably true that women are more often in a more vulnerable position, but it doesn't have to be that way, nor it is in my experience. I work in a strongly male dominated industry, and a lot of my male colleagues have taken parental leave. And despite being fairly well paid, their wives work as well (at least in the cases I know for sure).

I have been lucky to an extent, mainly because I met my partner when I was 25 so we were together for 7 years before having children so I got to know him very well. Of course not everyone meets someone that early and that might lead to rush having children.

Thanks already I know that my child is blossoming and I have no regrets. It is also lucky that I do have qualifications, skills and at some point I am determined to build back my own finances.

I wonder if we could better help our kids to become what @Increscendo has - confident supportive partnership which sounds absolutely fantastic both people and for the children. Such a good secure situation to grow up in.

For our daughters it might be not just promoting their work skills and education, but also the confidence to spot signs of a flakey partner early. We value highly romantic attachments with ‘connections’ and mutual interests. However almost no value or discussions around what makes a life long good relationship, particularly family values.

For sons similar but also ensuring that they have insight into inequalities, and parenting well and what that means perhaps.

@Graphista

Regarding your comment:

Oh come off it! It's well known that it does! Pregnancy and mat leave alone have an impact even if the father thereafter genuinely splits childcare 50/50! You sound so naive. Is there any man or even woman without children at your workplace started the same time as you in the same role? Is their pay the same as yours? Are you now the same rank/status?*
*
Promotions/salary increases are based on performance. I managed to get promoted whilst on maternity leave as it was based on my performance BEFORE going on leave. Next year I (obviously!!) won't expect any promotion/significant increase because I have been on leave for long time and therefore not working.

In total I have been not working due to having children 1 year (6 months for each child). But that's true for everyone. Some of my colleagues have taken a sabbatical year and so they didn't get a promotion during that time.

I hope to be working many more years. 1 year off won't have major impact at any rate.

@Rejoiningperson thanks. My ex didn't have the history yours did of a family prior to our getting together. Very shocking the complete turnaround though. Even close friends of his who'd known him since nursery and early primary school were completely blindsided by how he behaved. Most of those friendships have fallen away now as the friends just felt they didn't really know him.

So often on here there are posters "my husband/partner would never do that!" and also "he'd never cheat he's not the type I trust him" Yet the relationships board is full of posters who've had very similar experiences. When I first started on mn (I think I may have just been lurking at the time) there was a very brave poster who posted, without name changing, that she had been exactly that type of poster in years past... she had just discovered his years long affair, separated from him and he was giving her the runaround on both maintenance and contact. She posted as a "cautionary tale" type post.

@Increscendo then I would say you are extremely fortunate to have both a fair, understanding and supportive partner AND employer. Most women don't have these, especially women in lower income brackets, and it's not purely down to the choices they've made. Much of life is down to luck from birth onwards. It's vanishingly rare that women are promoted while on mat leave, the majority are battling just to keep their jobs.

Are you doing all you can to make this a possibility for all women? There are many ways to do this.

I enjoyed a better set of circumstances as a pregnant employee than my mother did - she was instantly sacked before she'd even officially told them she was pregnant (she was delaying for exactly this reason) and it was perfectly legal at this time. Nothing she could do about it.

When I had dd (trying to remember so forgive me if I get some details slightly incorrect) I believe the law at that time was you couldn't return to work until at least 2 weeks post partum. Mat leave and pay was still fairly limited insofar as iirc I could only get full mat pay if I said I'd be returning to work within I think it was 18 weeks which was the Max length of mat leave then? And then if I didn't I had to repay what I'd been paid which was above statutory maternity pay. I think the length of time mat pay was paid was similarly limited but it was over 20 years ago so it's hard to remember.

I believe maternity leave and pay has significantly but gradually improved and lengthened such that now it's possible to take a year off?

Younger mothers than me I'm sure are more knowledgeable on the current legislation.

@Melodieunchained why do you think there is so little difference between cohabitation and marriage and that cohabiting before marriage makes any difference? Are you under the impression cohabitation is regarded legally as a "common law marriage" ? Because that isn't the case.

@RosesAndHellebores haha! I hope the publisher comment was a compliment? If so thanks

Regarding the religious aspects well that prove interesting for us! I was raised Catholic but was very much lapsed even then, he was raised as a "high seasons and holidays only" Methodist! So there was a touch of a "scandal" there. As he and his family weren't quite as fussed we had a chapel wedding as I knew my grans and my mum especially would have been hurt and stressed if we didn't. His mum was happy it was a religious ceremony and didn't really mind not Methodist. As a result we were required to go for pre marital counselling to discuss and ensure we had similar morals, expectations etc. Now I'm not one to think religion should be enforced but given the high divorce/separation rates I do think compulsory pre marital/cohabitation counselling wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing! Not that it prevented him going off with his wandering dick!

I hope that I've raised my dd to expect decent respectful treatment from her partners. I've even worried at times if I've done rather too good a job there - like when she dumped one boyfriend for sloppy eating habits! but generally I think I've got it right. She won't put up with disrespectful treatment and has even had supposed friends giving it "aww he didn't mean to be a twat" type arguments against her dumping a guy who's taken the piss in some way, usually infidelity but also taking her for granted or bad manners. We did have a difficult situation with one boy which neither of us spotted any red flags, indeed he was very much on the shy side if anything...until she broke up with him. No major reason actually she just felt they were no longer as close and had drifted apart. He then basically became a bloody stalker! Police were Fucking useless and I ended up messaging his parents with a strongly worded text which I perhaps should have done in the first instance, but some of his behaviours were very worrying. Thankfully his parents were decent sorts who'd no idea what he'd been up to and immediately apologised and also set him straight and told him to back the fuck off! Which he did thank goodness. But it was a very worrying time.

Sadly in other ways young women today seem to be expected to put up with all kinds of misogynistic crap that my generation simply wouldn't have - in general. Even my parents generation did certain things better than is being done now.

@Graphista so sorry you had that experience. Good in one way he had friends all his life who also saw it - even if they couldn’t make him see sense. I have to say I was completely blindsided by Ex and it has rocked my trust and confidence forever I’d say. He was my second major relationship and I made damn sure, or so I thought, that I chose well.

Ex was incredibly kind, thoughtful, all his friends liked him. His Ex thought he was fantastic. His family kind of revered him. He was such a family man. He’d adopted his first step child in his 20s. He had a very high level job but didn’t brag or take stress home. Always cheerful, always. Did loads of housework. Supported my career. Highly intelligent. Good critical thinker. Fun. Bit nerdy but very interesting. Lots of talents. Great with my child. Didn’t have any vices. Fit and healthy. Decent family. Totally into me. Generous. Stable. Good with money. Very secure and organised.

Quite a bloody shock I can tell you when he threw me under a bus! He still has almost everyone thinking he’s pretty amazing too. Turns out he’s a complete liar, numerous affairs, financially he’s screwed me. Only my solicitor has a clear picture as it is when you try pin him down he’s pretty horrible and mean really. She is very experienced but even she feels like wringing his neck! She is shocked by some of his tactics.

Promotions/salary increases are based on performance. I managed to get promoted whilst on maternity leave as it was based on my performance BEFORE going on leave.

I used to think that promotions were due to high hard and well I work, but now I know the luck of being at the right place at the right time are more important than that.

The sector I work in doesn’t even have “promotions”, the only way to progress in your career is to apply for other higher roles, but these become available rarely, you literally need to wait for someone to retire or die to have a chance to compete to apply.

It is true I could have applied for better roles if I was prepared to commute but there were no trains or nursery hours that allowed such combination so, going back to the op, my career started to slowdown because some one needed to be the primary carer and my very affluent husband was too “busy” to do that. So all went well while we were married but I thank the universe that I was married, as I still have sole care of my child, no help of him and far less money to bring our child up but had it not been for the marriage certificate I wouldn’t even had been able to provide a space for DS to live/visit.

As the OP, he said I will get a council home (as if they grow in trees) and that the government would take care of me. Someway he didn’t care at all that his son went from being privately educated to be in receipt of free school dinners in 2 months.

Having a marriage certificate balanced the situation enough to allow me to keep a roof over DS’ head after the split. Child maintenance has always been severely underpaid because as a business owner it is easy to hide his real salary as anything that would help to show how affluent he is is disguised as a “company asset”.

@Rejoiningperson his turnaround was a shock for many. Even his parents barely have a relationship with him now. One sibling cut him off altogether due to this plus some other stuff where they felt he simply wasn't the person they though he was. It's been a huge shake up for his whole family. 2nd lawyer (1st was useless and lived in a world of her own!) was similarly shocked at some of what he did - mainly around nonsense over contact with dd, even one of the judges (yes there were several! He kept dragging me back to court over petty shit) eventually lost patience and pulled him up on his behaviour both in and out of court (he actually shouted at the judge at one point! Idiot!). This resulted in a very unusual final contact order which I won't detail here but happy to discuss in pm if you're interested. Too identifying for here.

@KarmaNoMore the loopholes and low amounts in the cm system seriously need addressing shockingly poorly policed.

What I don't understand, @Graphista, is why I have to be grateful for having an understanding partner, whereas you haven't mentioned how lucky he is for the exact same reason.

It must be the way I was brought up. My father was a high earner and my mother sort of assumed she could stay home despite having a promising career. Until my father sat her down in front of me and my sister, and asked her why would she get to stay home while he worked hard every day, and what that would teach us. He basically 'forced' her to work.

Why not everyone sees it that way is beyond my comprehension.

@Increscendo I don’t disagree that both parents working and sharing childcare is the most desirable set up and the one that sends a good message to children but your dad doesn’t sound great in that example. Did he do 50% childcare? Did they discuss it before having kids? Why did you and your sister have to witness it?

[quote TedMullins]@Increscendo I don’t disagree that both parents working and sharing childcare is the most desirable set up and the one that sends a good message to children but your dad doesn’t sound great in that example. Did he do 50% childcare? Did they discuss it before having kids? Why did you and your sister have to witness it?[/quote]
Every discussion in my family was open, my sister and I were always part of the decision making. I am very grateful for that as I have always understood how a healthy relationship works.

If anything, my father did more. For instance my mother didn't drive (always scared her) and he was the one taking us everywhere. Still felt fair, as the share of care should be according to capabilities. My mother did all the cooking because my father was pretty useless in the kitchen.

I am not sure to what extent they discussed it before having children, but I guess they did. My mother never stopped working, she just wished so!

@Increscendo, I don't think that's what Graphista said.
She said you are lucky to have BOTH an understanding partner AND an understanding employer....
In particular, an understanding employer!

Your father was awful tbh. Esp the part about sorting the dirty laundery in front of his dcs.

Well... I dont think children should beincolved in the organisation of the fsamilky - who works who doesn't etc...

I also don't believe you have any idea of how much mnetal load your mum carried compare to you dad. Doing the cooking and the cleaning is only a small part of parenting/looking after a household.

@CovidSmart

Well... I dont think children should beincolved in the organisation of the fsamilky - who works who doesn't etc...

I also don't believe you have any idea of how much mnetal load your mum carried compare to you dad. Doing the cooking and the cleaning is only a small part of parenting/looking after a household.

My mother never did any cleaning! We had a cleaner. She just did the cooking as she loved it!