‘If you look white, then you are white’- what is this now?!

[OwlBeThere]

I’ll start this by saying this is a conversation I had on tiktok. Yes,it’s mostly younger people on that app, but there is also some fantastic political discourse and discussion around linguistics which is my field so that’s what I use it for.

I am mixed race. My mother is Asian (Japanese), my dad is Welsh. I have the kind of skin that is very pale until I see the sun then I tan quickly. I don’t ‘look’ very obviously Asian, I suppose. I do have very straight, very dark hair from my mother, and I do have a relatively flat bridge to my nose. In my welsh village where I was raised from age 4 (born in Japan, moved to Denmark when I was 2, then to wales) I was ‘that Chinese kid’ a lot in the 80s, I had my share of casual racism thrown my way. I speak Japanese, welsh and English.
All that backstory is just to explain why I was completely baffled when in a discussion around racism I was told that because my ‘phenotype’ is white and I’m ‘white passing’ then I am white and have no business taking part in a discussion on racism as I’ve ‘probably never experienced it’.
Many people ask me my heritage, so I think it’s pretty clear to most people that I’m mixed in some way because otherwise they wouldn’t ask, right?
Have any other people mixed race people come across this as a thing? This phenotype argument that appears to negate half of my family?!

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows I think if your ex and children have no real association with their Israeli heritage and don’t identify with it that’s entirely fair. If THEY choose to identify as white that is also fair. My beef is more with someone else telling me what I am as if it’s a statement of fact, when I have strong ties with my Japanese heritage and identify with it. Also I think times change. If I grew up now as a mixed person in my part of wales, my experience would be a very different one and I might feel more ‘white’, as the mixed kids I know aren’t othered as much.

[quote OwlBeThere]@CirclesWithinCircles well yeah, ‘her with the slitty eyes’ or ‘ching Chong chinaman’ isn’t at allllllll racist. Especially when I’m fucking JAPANESE.
I can laugh about it to an extent now because it’s so flipping ridiculous. But honestly, when I went to uni to do linguistics/SLT and someone started asking me how to pronounce Chinese words 🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️ I dunno mate, you’re English, can you read welsh? No? Why not?![/quote]
Yep. Had it all too. For some reason the remark that upset me the most was the husband of a friend who, on being informed that I was moving to another European country, said "You're going to look really out of place there, aren't you?"

I know I should have shut him down immediately, but I was actually so gobsmacked I just looked at him, horrified.

My mother looks really Chinese and she regularly got people refusing to believe she was British, arguing with her about it, constantly being asked where she came from, etc.

I dye my hair blonde, and to be honest even I'm not sure if that's to deflect some of the comments I've had over the years.

@SimonJT well when emma stone plays a mixed Swedish/Hawaiian/Chinese character despite being not Asian or Hawaiian in the least bit...it’s not great!

@CirclesWithinCircles I dye my hair all kinds of colours. It sometimes feels like it’s a way of deflecting attention from my face.

SimonJT in the last couple of years I've started noticing East Asian men are occasionally the romantic lead in films (which will be positive for my boys when they are old enough to watch rom coms).

[quote RedMarauder]@SmokedDuck so Asian actors should be glad to have a acting job where they have to play a parody of another Asian ethnicity?

Because that's what your post implies.

There is known extremely lazy stereotyping of Asian characters in the theatre and on screen. Casting people just because they ethnically from the right region doesn't help this.[/quote]
Are you serious? All actors are playing people who are not like themselves.

If that is parody and therefore bad, you might as well go stand with the puritans and iconoclasts and shut down the theatre, because you are coming from the same way of thinking.

Does this only apply to non-white actors, or is it ok for a white person to play another white person of any ethnicity?

But non-white actors are stuck in roles of specific ethnicities because them somehow that is authentic? Yes, those actors will not be happy if you tell them those are their limits. Actors like to play all kinds of roles, that's why they become actors.

I saw a film the other day where Temuera Morrison played a mixed race Japanese man, I doubt he'd have considered it a parody. Heck, I've seen Brian Cox play a Russian!!

Identity politics really is just secular Calvinism, it's fricking awful.

It's ridiculous. Yet these kids will say Meghan has experienced racism even though she is white passing. I am sure though you do experience a different level of racism when you do not pass as white - but that doesn't preclude you from the conversations about race as a whole

There seems to be a trend on social media for random people TELLING strangers of mixed (or not immediately obvious?!) race/heritage what they are or arent.

My DC are mixed black/white and my teen DD in particular is all over TikTok and various social media and gets ‘told’ what she is or isn’t and what the ‘acceptable’ response for her is based on other people’s perceptions. She’s been told she ‘ isn’t black, so should stop begging BLM’ and then told she is ‘allowed to talk about BLM, as she’s black, but her Asian friends should stop’.

Keyboard warriors seem to think they’re the identity police all of a sudden, and that mixed race people are fair game.

Where does it end?

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/25/race-east-jackson-ohio-appalachia-white-black

In the above example the residents say that their community was a mix of black people and white people. So, when they had children and their children had children and so on, why was the decision made to say that those descendants are black? If the community was mixed from the start why aren't they white? What makes them black, not white? Who makes up these rules?

I think that American society is more obsessed with this sort of thing than British society and I'm convinced it has something to do with how young the country is and so there is a desire to know and celebrate your heritage. I'm Scottish and when I visit America they all go crazy for the accent and are keen to tell you how they are "⅛" or "1/12" Scottish. I've never heard anyone in Britain or Europe enumerate their heritage this way- it's so strange.

I think that as trans issues become more mainstream, race will be the next thing to fall. The likes of Rachel Dolezal will not be seen as strange anymore. Identity is now king. In a few years people will self-identify sex, race, and ability. There is an interesting thread elsewhere on mumsnet at the moment discussing the current trend (fuelled in online communities like TikTok and the rest) of young people self diagnosing as having autism or various personality disorders.

Very interesting discussion. In Australia there is a very strong belief that if you’re Aboriginal, the colour of your skin makes no difference at all - to be considered Aboriginal you have to be accepted by a specific group of other Aboriginal people.
I think most Aboriginal people here would be very unimpressed to hear “you look white so you’re white” as it has taken a long time for people to accept the idea that if you look white and are Aboriginal, you should be accepted as such.

Another facet a PP mentioned briefly above is my experience of racism towards my parent, who is not white passing and wears cultural clothing.

“Do you speak Eeeennglish?”
“Only a little. It’s my third language you know.”

@SmokedDuck are you deliberately being obtuse?

East Asian actors are frequently typed cast as Kung Fu champions if they play a Chinese character. South East Asian and Arab actors are frequently portrayed as terrorists. There is a big issue in theatre and on screen on how Asian characters are portrayed. Comedians like Omid Djalili and Phil Wang have pointed this out for years.

And yes there has been controversies over the portrayal of German and Russian characters played by white actors. They are always the baddies there as the US characters were all ways the good ones. It got so bad at one point they decided to use Serbian characters instead.

I read something interesting that Salman Rushdie’s ex-wife wrote - she was rich and beautiful and wore Western clothing which apparently cancelled out being brown. Her mother wasn’t rich or beautiful, and wore salwar kameez, and was therefore treated with contempt or patronised by the very same people.

@PyongyangKipperbang

I was once asked why my daughter "looks quite tanned" when my other 3 kids that were with me, didnt. I said that she was mixed race. The asker said "Oh, but she looks white...." in a "So thats ok isnt it?!" kind of way.

The asker? A black social worker. Still blows my mind to this day. Yes, I did complain.

Had this with a friend in a restaurant, waiter said your son is so tanned to my friend, and asked why she didn't use sun cream on him considering she is so pale herself It was like she kept digging. Son was mixed race, mum white & Dad black. She said she's experienced racism from both sides, but her child's Dad's family were terrible too about having a mixed race child.

@RedMarauder Very true! Western entertainment also has a fetish for headscarfs 'slipping off' Muslim women; and generally women of colour being 'saved' by white men in some way or another. It's all very tedious and formulaic.

[quote RedMarauder]@SmokedDuck are you deliberately being obtuse?

East Asian actors are frequently typed cast as Kung Fu champions if they play a Chinese character. South East Asian and Arab actors are frequently portrayed as terrorists. There is a big issue in theatre and on screen on how Asian characters are portrayed. Comedians like Omid Djalili and Phil Wang have pointed this out for years.

And yes there has been controversies over the portrayal of German and Russian characters played by white actors. They are always the baddies there as the US characters were all ways the good ones. It got so bad at one point they decided to use Serbian characters instead.[/quote]
Complaining about film stereotyping is not the same as saying actors should only portray people of the exact same ethnicity.

Saying, I don't like Russians portrayed as baddies in films is not equivalent to saying, I don't think Brian Cox should play a Russian because he is Scottish.

Completely and totally different. The former isn't about race at all which is the topic of the discussion.

I don't get this. There is plenty of anti-white racism too. It depends where you live.

There is plenty of anti-white racism too

Do you understand how racism works?

The UK Equality Act 2010 - the race bit applies to any race including white people.

"s13
(1)A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if, because of a protected characteristic, A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat others.

(2)If the protected characteristic is age, A does not discriminate against B if A can show A's treatment of B to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

(3)If the protected characteristic is disability, and B is not a disabled person, A does not discriminate against B only because A treats or would treat disabled persons more favourably than A treats B.

(4)If the protected characteristic is marriage and civil partnership, this section applies to a contravention of Part 5 (work) only if the treatment is because it is B who is married or a civil partner.

(5)If the protected characteristic is race, less favourable treatment includes segregating B from others.

(6)If the protected characteristic is sex—

(a)less favourable treatment of a woman includes less favourable treatment of her because she is breast-feeding;

(b)in a case where B is a man, no account is to be taken of special treatment afforded to a woman in connection with pregnancy or childbirth.

(7)Subsection (6)(a) does not apply for the purposes of Part 5 (work).

(8)This section is subject to sections 17(6) and 18(7)."

@VladmirsPoutine

There is plenty of anti-white racism too

Do you understand how racism works?

Why don't peoole understand that nationality is protected under equality laws, not just race?

I'm sure you must be aware that for example, a white Polish person can be racially discriminated against in the UK? Or a white Scottish person in England, or vice versa.

@CirclesWithinCircles "Nationality" yes.

Interesting link daysofthunder

But reading the detail, it seems that the issues in that Ohio town stem from the meaning that was attributed to the word 'black' in the past. I don't think it can be used as an example to justify that race is subject to self-identification.

Then, going through Rachel Dolezal's wiki page, it appears to be a very unique example as well. It seems that she experienced some problems within her own family when she was little, and also she faced some disadvantages for being white at work? Hence she decided to 'change' race? Not sure.

How would it work in places like China, the Middle East? Could a white person be discriminated against there?

A social worker on hearing I was Romany said "Oh, will you tell me my fortune"? It was in a professional capacity too, she was working.
I didn't complain, wish I had, but remembered how many of our children are represented in the care system and kept my mouth shut.