‘If you look white, then you are white’- what is this now?!

[OwlBeThere]

I’ll start this by saying this is a conversation I had on tiktok. Yes,it’s mostly younger people on that app, but there is also some fantastic political discourse and discussion around linguistics which is my field so that’s what I use it for.

I am mixed race. My mother is Asian (Japanese), my dad is Welsh. I have the kind of skin that is very pale until I see the sun then I tan quickly. I don’t ‘look’ very obviously Asian, I suppose. I do have very straight, very dark hair from my mother, and I do have a relatively flat bridge to my nose. In my welsh village where I was raised from age 4 (born in Japan, moved to Denmark when I was 2, then to wales) I was ‘that Chinese kid’ a lot in the 80s, I had my share of casual racism thrown my way. I speak Japanese, welsh and English.
All that backstory is just to explain why I was completely baffled when in a discussion around racism I was told that because my ‘phenotype’ is white and I’m ‘white passing’ then I am white and have no business taking part in a discussion on racism as I’ve ‘probably never experienced it’.
Many people ask me my heritage, so I think it’s pretty clear to most people that I’m mixed in some way because otherwise they wouldn’t ask, right?
Have any other people mixed race people come across this as a thing? This phenotype argument that appears to negate half of my family?!

@Frogartist

Some people feel that only black people can be subjected to racism, anything else is prejudice (I think that's the term they use). This might explain the Tiktok messages.

See.. my son's father is black (African). Because of the demographics of where we live my son occassionally gets mistaken for being "Arabic" (Turkish/Moroccan). Not usually in a bad way - for example checking he can eat non-halal food. BUT where people are a bit funny with him, they generally improve when they realise he actually looks like that because he is mixed race. Including when they see him with his black father. So, at least round here, being Turkish/Morrocon invites more prejudice than being (half) black. Even though, in most cases, their skin is lighter than his. But some of the more simplistic naratives would say that that is impossible, Tukish people cant understand what it is like to face racism in the same way that people with black ancestry can etc etc*. My son has received more (fortunately rare) funny looks with his hair cut short in winter when he is a bit paler, than with longer (curly) hair in summer when he is darker skinned. *fortunately rare **and I know that he will get some privilege/a different experience fo being dual heritage/lighter skinned. But its not always a simple sliding scale of the darker skin tones = more discrimination. It is a whole lot more complicated and area-specific than that.

My brother is dark skinned (both him and me are British/Dutch/Carribean but I’m very freckley and fair) on a family holiday years ago I walked straight through security at Bristol airport and he was not only stopped and they went through his backpack with a fine tooth comb, but were actually really fucking horrible to him about it. I was shocked, the way they looked at him and spoke to him was so different to me. They had already decided he was guilty and searching his bag was to find his innocence. Remembering this has just made me so mad.

Half Indo-Nepali, half White British. Like @SimonJT the weather changes my ethnicity.

Inter-racial and intra-racial prejudice is definitely a thing.

Some people are just twats. Don’t let them bother you.

I am mixed too.

While I agree that shadism is an issue, people like you and I still experience racism. I get the "Where are you really from?" I was born in London and have a Home Counties accent

These kids clearly only have experience of one country. In Japan, Chinese and Korean people suffer terrible racism and there's a definite hierarchy of other countries.

If they are in the UK what do they think about the racism faced by Travellers and Eastern Europeans?

@RedGoldAndGreene

I am mixed too.

While I agree that shadism is an issue, people like you and I still experience racism. I get the "Where are you really from?" I was born in London and have a Home Counties accent

Shadism. Thats what it is. Some people do not seem to realise there are different races other than black and white. There was a comment earlier on the thread which basically said how can you tell if someone is mixed race if their skin is light? I thought that was breathaking. No realisation that there are other features which may distinguish other ethnicities than skin colour.

I sometimes feel that Asians are the forgotten ethnicity. TV is full of black people and white people but producers seem to think that ticks the diversity box and forget about Asians. And I don't just mean South Asians.

I do think the ‘where are you really from’ comments are generally from a place of intrigue and interest as as a genealogist/family researcher I get this interest. Although as a mixed person I’d prefer, what’s your heritage?

I sometimes feel that Asians are the forgotten ethnicity. TV is full of black people and white people but producers seem to think that ticks the diversity box and forget about Asians. And I don't just mean South Asians.

It's also very telling that in the UK Asian refers to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh where as in the rest of the world Asia means the Far East like China which makes more sense because of their population. (I know that people from South Asia are more common in the UK but it's very dated)

@RedGoldAndGreene

I sometimes feel that Asians are the forgotten ethnicity. TV is full of black people and white people but producers seem to think that ticks the diversity box and forget about Asians. And I don't just mean South Asians.

It's also very telling that in the UK Asian refers to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh where as in the rest of the world Asia means the Far East like China which makes more sense because of their population. (I know that people from South Asia are more common in the UK but it's very dated)

Funnily enough growing up in the Lake District where there are a lot of east Asian visitors, Asian absolutely meant Chinese or Japanese.

But I absolutely agree. I also (non scientifically) would think that race incidents against Asians would be higher than black people due to the prejudiced link to terrorism. And representation is so much lower in advertising (I might be wrong, but off the top of my head, I can think of campaigns with Muslim women in scarves, and it's usually black Muslim women rather than middle Eastern ones).

I think that there's also a major preconception in the UK that mixed means one white parent and one black parent. Even on forms sometimes they will ask for details of what I mean by mixed and I'm an Other

If people think you are white, they will treat you like a white person.
We usually use phenotypes to make these assessments in public settings, rather than DNA tests.
You bring notions of privilege into the mix and that is the angle that they're coming from, notnthat your cultural experience will be a mirror image of people who are not of mixed heritage.

I sometimes feel that Asians are the forgotten ethnicity. TV is full of black people and white people but producers seem to think that ticks the diversity box and forget about Asians. And I don't just mean South Asians.

I wouldn’t agree that TV is full of black people, but there is a huge lack of East Asians represented on TV. They also suffer the same problem people South Asians suffer, we play generic Asian people. So someone who is Pakistani may be cast as an Indian, someone who is Thai may be cast as someone who is Malaysian. Its like the producers etc think “meh, near enough”.

The same happens with language. I love hearing Urdu in TV shows as the characters are usually talking absolute garbage, I imagine the same happens with other languages.

People questioning your heritage all the time? How is that anything other than rude?

^This.

If anyone asks me a question along these lines, I would normally assume they are curious and reply. I've never experienced someone challenging my response (i.e. factual information) IRL (I think it would be beyond obtuse to do so)

On the rare occasions when I've sensed that someone's intentions could be malicious I've just ignored them and didn't engage with them or wasted my time any further.

@The90swereadecadeago

I do think the ‘where are you really from’ comments are generally from a place of intrigue and interest as as a genealogist/family researcher I get this interest. Although as a mixed person I’d prefer, what’s your heritage?

I still don't like questions about heritage. It's often so personal - people may feel (or know!) that there is prejudice against their particular background, their heritage might come with some trauma or some unknowns they don't like going into, or may just not want to share their family details with you.

How often do you ask this question to white people?

@DeadlyMedally

If people think you are white, they will treat you like a white person. We usually use phenotypes to make these assessments in public settings, rather than DNA tests. You bring notions of privilege into the mix and that is the angle that they're coming from, notnthat your cultural experience will be a mirror image of people who are not of mixed heritage.

That's still off though. As a blue eyed fair haired person my son is likely to benefit from certain privileges - but he's still experienced a childhood where he's seen his parents racially abused, he's had his father taken aside at every single 'random search' at airports and stadiums while his friends and their white dads have stood there shuffling awkwardly, he's seen me break down in tears when they were questioning whether he was my child at Heathrow, because we don't look the same, don't share a surname, and they didn't trust my letter (eventually they believed him at least, while he cried 'is my mummy my mummy my mummy').

So yes, he's maybe privileged in some ways but not others. These experiences are ones you carry with you, and shape your understanding of the world around you.

The idea of privilege is very important and helpful, and so is intersectionality but I do also feel that there's a bit of a competitive spirit about who is the least privileged now, it's frustrating

How often do you ask this question to white people?

I am white, get asked this all the time when people hear me speak. They their heads, smile patronisingly and say " ooo can hear you have a little accent, where are you from?". So rude, especially when you are in the middle of a conversation about something completely different.

They TILT their heads....

Very interesting though not entirely surprising that this thread has evolved to a compare and contrast of which race has it worse than a(nother) race.

I do think the ‘where are you really from’ comments are generally from a place of intrigue and interest as as a genealogist/family researcher I get this interest.

I don't get asked "Where are you really from?" as an initial question. When I say I was born in London and the person is unsatisfied with that answer, they ask it. I am really born in London - I suppose I could offer the hospital on my birth certificate but I have no recollection of that area as I've moved around.

"Where are you from?" is a complex question for me anyway. My parents are from 2 different countries and I've lived in a handful of others. Where I'm born, where I've lived longest and where I live now are also different areas.

@OverTheRubicon exactly! My 4yo might look white but due to our surname and the fact that my dh holds dual nationality when we went to America in 2019 my then 3yo was taken aside, searched and put through the metal detector by himself. I didn't see any other pre-schoolers being subjected to that.

@Frogartist

*How often do you ask this question to white people?*

I am white, get asked this all the time when people hear me speak. They their heads, smile patronisingly and say " ooo can hear you have a little accent, where are you from?". So rude, especially when you are in the middle of a conversation about something completely different.

Yes, it's the being "foreign" that invites the question. So non-white skin colour or a non-British accent means you are apparently fair game.

I used to go to a lot of meetings with a Polish colleague, who was white and didn't have much of an accent. Many many people asked me where I came from (living in the UK all my life). Nobody ever asked her.

(Though she did once tell me the story of when she'd met up with some mum friends and one had made the shocked revelation that the nursery had accepted a Polish child. There was apparently lots of tutting that such a thing had been allowed and wondering how he would fit in until colleague pointed out the Polish child was actually her son whereupon everyone immediately tried to back track).

when we went to America in 2019 my then 3yo was taken aside, searched and put through the metal detector by himself.

DS1 got patted down and sent through the metal detector by himself last time we went to Gatwick. They were doing it in a pretty jovial way though, so I didn't notice if it was just him or if it was all kids that were old enough to walk by themselves.

My partner is Jamaican but has a white grandad so his skin is rather light. When I had my son a lady from work looked in my pram and said "I thought his dad was black" because I had said he was Jamaican. She said she didn't know white people lived there. My son over the years has been questioned many times from teachers about his heritage as they don't believe him when he says he his mixed race, I have also been asked when collecting him as they thought he had been confused. 🙄 I've had many sweeping comments from people telling me you can tell my children have something in them though. My partner was also bullied at school for being light. It seems for some people they generalise that certain countries or places can only create one skin tone.

It's also very telling that in the UK Asian refers to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh where as in the rest of the world Asia means the Far East like China which makes more sense because of their population. (I know that people from South Asia are more common in the UK but it's very dated)

No it isn't dated. The UK experience is different from the American, Canadian, NZ and Australian ones as UK history is different.

This is the problem with importing US ideas on race and ethnicity.

This means each country has its own issues around race and ethnicity. Some of those issues may be the similar to another country's but due to the socio-economic factors, history and government of a particular country it differs.

My grandmother was black, my mother half black, and my father white. I consider myself white because that's how I look and the non-white element of my ancestry was more than a generation ago.

My brother on the other hand completely disagrees and ticks "mixed race", even though he looks totally white too.

It's an odd one because which of us is "right"? Personally I'd feel a bit fake claiming to be mixed race.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with asking where someone is from, or what their race is - (genuinely) why is that rude?