To talk about gender pay gap?

[chopc]

My DD (12) is having a debate after Easter and she has to argue the motion "the world is biased towards men"

Discussing things with her got me interested and I just listened to a podcast about gender pay gap in Uber drivers. as per this women uber drivers earn less than men because they do less unsocial hours etc

The talk implied women want more flexible working/ less pressure etc than men

So should women get paid the same if they CHOOSE a different lifestyle

This is outside having time off for having a baby. It is difficult because some women are not able to breastfeed and are not able to pump so there will be discrimination between women if this was allowed to happen

However if an employee has a year off each time they have a baby, is it right they get paid the same as the male counterpart? This I am not so sure

I know this is in AIBU for traffic but would love to start a discussion on this topic as I think I have a lot to learn

The ASDA case is interesting- does anyone know about the gender/ sex differences between warehouse workers and shop floor workers if they were deemed to do an equal job? As in why are men more likely to work in a warehouse?

In the guardian article about the different degrees attracting different sex students - it would be useful to know why these differences exist? I don't think it's due to lack of opportunity. Is it due to lack of role models? Is it because women like working with other people more than men?

I think if everyone has equal choice - then the chosen degree being dominated by men/ women is irrelevant

'But if the pay is based on level of experience and the woman is effectively a year behind then no, they shouldn’t be paid the same. (I’m in this position and perfectly happy with it.)'

Yep.

I had a female colleague who said that a woman with 28 years experience being paid 30% less than a man with 30 years experience because she took 2 mat leaves 15 years ago was perfectly fair.

I mean I thought she was a dick and imagined that was a pretty unusual stance but see there's at least one other woman who agrees with it!

You cannot be this dumb, OP. Girls are routinely told, directly and indirectly, that science and maths are for boys. From the age of 8 there’s a massive drop in confidence of girls in those subjects. How do you think that correlates with the subjects they choose for GCSE, A level and degree?

Why are more than 50% of doctors male and more than 50% of nurses female? Because of the way they are portrayed to small children.

“No More Boys and Girls” on the iPlayer is worth a watch to see how this sexism plays out from before birth.

The Asda case like that fought over differences in pay awarded to hospital porters and cleaners is about unequal pay for equivalent roles. That there are cases to be fought and won means the law makers are on the road to making employment conditions right. Discrimination laws also exist even if they need to used far too often to ensure a bit of equality. Employment law probably won’t solve the problems. Changing Attitudes and societal norms is a better area for debate.

The thorny issue that explains a lot about the gender pay gap rests with how a lot of our society wants to structure family life. Many men and women want to preserve the idea that the mother takes a career break or sacrifice their commitment to the job. That the mans job or career is the important one and so on. I don’t agree with this at all. But a lot of people do and some of those who vehemently do so are women. Many see the choice to be aSAHP as a right. Others see it as a privilege that should be funded by the family not the state or employer.

https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/Evidence-basedactionssforemployers.pdf

This article was good - thanks to whoever who suggested this

@chopc

In the guardian article about the different degrees attracting different sex students - it would be useful to know why these differences exist? I don't think it's due to lack of opportunity. Is it due to lack of role models? Is it because women like working with other people more than men?

I think if everyone has equal choice - then the chosen degree being dominated by men/ women is irrelevant

There are lots of reasons. Here are a few:

• children are socialised from a very young age and by age 8 categorise jobs into 'girl' jobs and 'boy' jobs. There is research that shows people will choose a job that is suited to their gender over one they are actually interested in.

• societal unconscious bias assigns jobs a gender so most people will refer to a doctor as ' 'he' for example

• Traits that are typically valued in male dominated careers are praised in boys but not in girls. Gendered language is a thing - girls are bossy but boys are assertive....

• societal expectations of gender roles in the home and the workplace are hugely influential. The pandemic has been a prime example of this with women taking on the bulk of childcare and homeschooling even when they work full time.

• the world has been designed by men and therefore works better for men. This includes work places.

I could go on but hopefully you get the idea.

@TomHardyAndMe actually I am not dumb. I have two STEM degrees from a world renowned university

Your data is out of date - there is a higher proportion of female medical students these days. Agree about nursing

https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/Evidence-basedactionssforemployers.pdf

I have two STEM degrees from a world renowned university

And you're completely unaware of the issues we're discussing?? Really?!

Societal pressure OP. I do a bit of careers guidance as part of my job, and I notice that if you ask a boy or young man about what job they want, they're usually happy to tell you that they'd like a well paid job. Girls and young women tend to be a bit hesitant about saying the same thing - they're often worried that they'd come across as a bit money-grabbing or unladylike or who knows what. I make a point of telling the girls I talk to that it's fine to aspire to a good salary!

@An0n0n0n

I'll say it every fucking time, men should have a year off as well. AS WELL. Not shared, as well as.

Is there an applaud emoji?

I get your reasoning @TheJerkStore and the pandemic statistics support what you are saying. I am just lucky to have lived in a different world even though my parents are from a backward third world country. In fact STEM subjects comes more naturally to my daughter than myself .........

Having three kids and therefore knowing several parents , none of us think the way you suggest and none of our children have ideas that certain subjects are more suited to them because of their sex.

OP have you seen the social experiment when a group of adults are brought into a classroom and the kids are asked who does which job? Even at a young age they guess a female nurse or nanny and a male engineer or computer programmer. The gendered expectations are present from a very young age.

[quote chopc]@TheJerkStore - so women able to take multiple amounts of maternity leave. The man doing the same job continues to work - you think they should both be paid the same? [/quote]
Yes, of course. Or to put it another way - a man who has been doing the job 10 years should be paid more than a man who has been doing it for 8 years? This makes sense if the job genuinely takes years to learn to do, but this is not true of the majority of jobs. So if the woman who has taken maternity leave is still performing the job to the same standard as the man (or woman) who hasn't, she should be paid the same.

@chopc

I get your reasoning *@TheJerkStore* and the pandemic statistics support what you are saying. I am just lucky to have lived in a different world even though my parents are from a backward third world country. In fact STEM subjects comes more naturally to my daughter than myself .........

Having three kids and therefore knowing several parents , none of us think the way you suggest and none of our children have ideas that certain subjects are more suited to them because of their sex.

You as individuals might not think like this ( or you just might not realise it) but I teach and research this subject so the points I'm making are evidence based and the result of years of research - mine and others in the sector.

I have two STEM degrees from a world renowned university

And you're completely unaware of the issues we're discussing?? Really?!

@TheJerkStore . As I mentioned I have heard of the gender pay gap but never took time to truly understand it. More fool me but there we are. I didn't say I was unaware of the issues - just that I didn't fully appreciate it.

Never came across gender bias at Uni or my career

@TigerBeetle is this a recent experiment?

Therefore it doesn't exist then huh

Never came across gender bias at Uni or my career

You must be the only women in the world to be able to say this!! And I'm not saying that flippantly

Well I'm convinced.

I think it would be a good idea to stop collecting data and to close this conversation and turn our efforts to something else.

[quote chopc]@TigerBeetle is this a recent experiment?
[/quote]
I run research similar to this most years and find similar results.

I especially agree with the posters who consider maternity leave to be a break/ holiday.

Why should women expect to be paid FFS?

In USA in some companies I believe it's funded by saving holiday and saving money. (May be out of date, let's hope they haven't changed this sensible approach).

We should do that.

Having children is a lifestyle choice that women make. Expecting to benefit from it financially shows up the privilege women get in society.

Men don't have the luxury of choosing to get pregnant. It's totally sexist.

Yes it's recent OP - around 2016 I think.

@TheJerkStore hmmm can't know many women

@NiceGerbil you do know writing on the thread is optional?

[quote chopc]@TheJerkStore hmmm can't know many women

@NiceGerbil you do know writing on the thread is optional? [/quote]
Yeah I've only been researching this area for nearly 20 years and have spoken to and collected data on thousands and thousands of women...... but what do I know eh!? 🤷🏼‍♀️