To talk about gender pay gap?

[chopc]

My DD (12) is having a debate after Easter and she has to argue the motion "the world is biased towards men"

Discussing things with her got me interested and I just listened to a podcast about gender pay gap in Uber drivers. as per this women uber drivers earn less than men because they do less unsocial hours etc

The talk implied women want more flexible working/ less pressure etc than men

So should women get paid the same if they CHOOSE a different lifestyle

This is outside having time off for having a baby. It is difficult because some women are not able to breastfeed and are not able to pump so there will be discrimination between women if this was allowed to happen

However if an employee has a year off each time they have a baby, is it right they get paid the same as the male counterpart? This I am not so sure

I know this is in AIBU for traffic but would love to start a discussion on this topic as I think I have a lot to learn

@CycleWoman again it's a decision the couple makes. If the man wants to be at home and the woman wants to go continue working or they share the leave - would this solve the problem?

@Pleaseaddcaffine so you and your make counterparts are allowed the same leave after childbirth. This could effectively mean that across the border problem of child bearing age could be absent from the workplace for quite a few years collectively. How would an employer run the business if this happens?

Do you really want a conversation about the gender pay gap, or are you looking for a fight about maternity leave and women potentially getting a better deal with time off?

Maybe men should be paid less when they have kids, just to even things out a bit. Maybe encourage them to take a "baby holiday" and let the women go back to work.
Or think about the structure of unsocial hours - why would someone in a factory (more likely to be male) get double time for working on a Saturday when someone in a shop (more likely to be female) would get straight time?
And all of your staff in a certain category going on mat leave would be the same as everyone handing in their notice at the same time - you just need to deal with it.

@Lessthanaballpark @Thatstoast

So if a woman wants to take a year of maternity leave at a time, she should be able to do this without penalty.

FWIW I went back to work 4 months after my first as I was still very junior in the job, felt 8 months was enough with my second and took a year with my third as I knew what would be my last chance to take such a long leave with a guaranteed job at the end.

It didn't occur to me what difficulties my employer may have been facing nor if I was losing pay but then my role was pretty individual in the sense our salaries were not uniform

It doesn’t really sound like you do want to learn, if I’m honest. You seem to have made your mind up already.

@Pumperthepumper do you have any input into the gender pay gap? Why it exists and what can be done to solve it?

A colleague of mine was off for nearly a year due to having cancer and going through chemo. I wouldn’t think it was acceptable that she was paid differently to me just because she had “time off”.

There’s lots of instances of sickness and disability’s that require time off for both genders. So why would you think it was acceptable to discriminate just because a woman has leave for having a child.

[quote chopc]@Pumperthepumper do you have any input into the gender pay gap? Why it exists and what can be done to solve it? [/quote]
Just answer the question. Are you worried men are getting a raw deal here?

I agree with the poster who said you're confusing equal pay with a pay gap. They are different, but both disadvantage women.

On equal pay. I totally expect to be paid the same as a colleague doing the same job, same responsibility, delivering at the same level. Why wouldn't I? Anything else would be discrimination.

Years of service as a pay rise method discriminate against women.

Gender pay gap is structural. Jobs seen traditionally as women's work are under valued and under paid. Boys are encouraged to go into certain industries, girls others. Again, ingrained misogyny.

@chopc

Many couples do make that choice.

But what about those who don’t want to make that choice? What about the need to recover from pregnancy birth? Exclusively breastfed (if that’s your choice)? These things aren’t respected. As women who work we are expected to a) suffer the consequences professionally/financially of taking career breaks or b) rush back to work before we might be ready to keep up with male counterparts. This is because we live in patriarchy where everything from the size of the chairs we sit on to our working week is designed by and for men.

I know you’re short on time but someone up thread mentioned Invisible Woman. Try it ok audiobook, it’s so interesting.

I see your point on years of experience. But I can only say that from my own experience, I’m as good or better at my job than a lot of the men who have been promoted above me while I’ve been on maternity leave (possibly why I’ve got a bee in my bonnet on the subject )

@Niconacotaco the first suggestion is feasible IMO.

Don't understand the second pojnt about the man in the factory and the woman in the shop as they are different jobs

The third - any ideas how an employer would deal with it? Especially in a field such as law where there is a clear career path

@Sparklesocks

It doesn’t really sound like you do want to learn, if I’m honest. You seem to have made your mind up already.

Sounds a bit MRA tbo...

So if a woman wants to take a year of maternity leave at a time, she should be able to do this without penalty.

Why would you want to punish her?

I have male colleagues who have taken shared parental leave - the mothers took the first six months then the men were off. I think it has to be structured this way I.e. they couldn't both be off at the same time.
I didn't consider my employer's "difficulties" when I took maternity leave any more than my partner did when he agreed that we should have kids.

@tilder no I understand the equal pay and agree

So you are saying in general women earn less than men because they are encouraged to have different roles? Again agree. But these days it is more of a choice no as in the UK women can choose same career paths as men?

You made a good point that years of service determining pay penalises women. So does expecting to meet the same targets as a woman who has been out of touch for several months can't generate the same business as someone who hasn't had that time off ......

The sad reality is that unequal pay begins long before many women (particularly those in professional roles) choose to have children. The number of highly educated and talented women who feel they can't afford to have shared parental leave because their male partners earn more than them is shocking and difficult to explain. If it is happening to them then it is much worse for those without the benefitof degrees. We need to look at why younger women seem to plateau in earnings compared to their male counterparts before having kids - what is going on there?

[quote chopc]@Niconacotaco the first suggestion is feasible IMO.

Don't understand the second pojnt about the man in the factory and the woman in the shop as they are different jobs

The third - any ideas how an employer would deal with it? Especially in a field such as law where there is a clear career path[/quote]
My employer sees it as part of general management. You employ women of child birth age, you expect some will have babies. Not to deal with it would be bad management.

As regards a career structure that can't accommodate maternity leave. Why is the maternity leave the problem? Why not the career structure?

But these days it is more of a choice no as in the UK women can choose same career paths as men?

Why, in your opinion, do they not?

@Niconacotaco noted. However do you have an opinion on how an employer should approach this?

And i guess with the Uber drivers example there are safety reasons why women may not want to do the late night shifts

So does expecting to meet the same targets as a woman who has been out of touch for several months can't generate the same business as someone who hasn't had that time off ......

I probably was a bit slower when I returned. A good employer, who values their female staff, would have a structure in place to support returning staff and get them quickly back to pre baby levels.

It depends whether women are seen as a valued part of the work force of not. In many companies, it seems not. I would argue those companies are poorer as a result.

@Eleganz now I remember reading an article about a man and a woman applying for a research grant. The man is automatically thought to have more potential and will therefore get a bigger grant. This starts a journey when he is able to employ more people and do a bigger study which means next time as he is more likely to receive a bigger grant as well

But these days it is more of a choice no as in the UK women can choose same career paths as men?

Am not a fan of the Guardian, but it is clear that a strong sex divide exists.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/05/gender-gap-uk-degree-subjects-doubles-eight-years-ucas-study

This is the Netflix/Explained ep I mentioned:

Summary - yes the pay gap is largely down to women taking maternity leave. A good way of combatting this is to give men generous paternity leave and encourage them to take it. That way, men and women are just as likely to take time off upon becoming new parents, and it has the added bonus of getting men more involved in parenting. Has worked out well in Iceland.

By having maternity leave laws that are more generous than paternity leave, you enshrine the notion that women (and not men) should be caregivers.

[quote chopc]@Eleganz now I remember reading an article about a man and a woman applying for a research grant. The man is automatically thought to have more potential and will therefore get a bigger grant. This starts a journey when he is able to employ more people and do a bigger study which means next time as he is more likely to receive a bigger grant as well [/quote]
There was an article last year in the Telegraph that also pointed out that female graduates were earning less than their male counterparts only one year after graduating.

The deck is still stacked against women regardless in many areas children or no.