AIBU - DH and baby sleep

[Heartbreakeyes]

I think I probably am being unreasonable here (at least in part) but new mum uncertainty and sleep deprivation mean I’m not quite sure of anything anymore!

DD is 6 months old and is not a good sleeper. She wakes every two hours, often more frequently, throughout the night and apart from a few good spells she always has done. She naps well during the day (around an hour in the morning, 1.5 at lunchtime and 30 minutes to 1 hour in the afternoon). She is EBF and I still feed her to sleep. I’ve tried napping during the day but (a) I get to sleep just as she’s waking up and (b) it feels so miserable doing nothing but looking after a baby and sleeping - I really value having that time to myself.

We have not tried sleep training yet (apart from some failed attempts to put her down drowsy but awake) - we may end up doing it but at the moment would prefer not to as she still seems so young. DH is on board with doing whatever I want.

At the moment DH is working from home but he works long hours, his typical day is about 9-9 but he can be working until 10/11/12 at times. He stops work for an hour in the evening to have dinner and do bathtime. He also gets up with DD and has her for two hours in the morning, usually 6-8 so I can catch up on sleep. He often sleeps in the spare room during the week. I do all the night wakings, though he will help if asked and often does at around 5am. DH is going to be off work for a month in May as he’s changing job.

The result is probably that we have about the same amount of sleep, though his is unbroken and mine is in 1-2 hour chunks. I haven’t slept more than four hours together since DD was born, and it’s very rarely more than 2 hours.

I feel like DH is doing a lot given how much he works but:

1. I really need a longer stretch of sleep soon, but DD wakes up for a lot longer if DH tries to put her down at night instead of me so he’s reluctant to take over any night wakings.

1. DH can put DD to sleep without feeding and I can’t. I have tried copying how he does it (rocking and pacing) but with no luck. Given that all the advice says we need to break the feed to sleep association I’d like him to take the lead on getting her used to bedtime without feeding to sleep. However, while he will help when asked he’s really resistant to committing to consistently doing bedtime for a while.

I suppose in part I just feel like I’m the main parent (unsurprising at I’m on mat leave and still breastfeeding) and am a bit overwhelmed with all the decisions. I feel hard done by doing all the night wakings but then I’m sure DH feels hard done by doing all the early mornings. Any suggestions gratefully received!

YABU = the poor man is doing enough, leave him alone!
YANBU = he could be doing more to help.

Note; I have been diagnosed with PND and anxiety - thankfully both mild and improving so I don’t think it’s relevant but including so as not to drip feed.

Lavender - bed sharing / co sleeping is absolutely safe if done right - especially with an older baby. In my view it can be hugely beneficial to mum and baby and certainly helps with breastfeeding. It's the norm in many countries and was the norm in the West until recently. I'd certainly go for co sleeping rather than sleep training. I don't need studies, I just need to look at my child to believe that if sleeping next to me is what allows both of us to have a decent amount of rest then that's got to be better than trying to change baby's natural behaviour. Having said that if sleep training is needed it is obviously better than a mum who cannot otherwise cope. It's about balancing the pros and cons. Understanding that sleep training may not be what's best for baby but if mum has no other option then its better than losing the plot.
Sleep training shouldn't be the first port of call in my view.

@ShirleyPhallus

My lovely GP (who specialises in paediatrics) likened it to jabs. Do we enjoy taking our baby to be jabbed, knowing they’ll scream and it’ll hurt and they’ll feel rubbish for a while after? No, it’s horrible. But we do it because we love them and as adults we know it’s the kindest thing to do even though it sucks when you’re doing it. ST is no different. As a parent you do sometimes have to take steps your kid won’t like because you know as an adult it’s better for them in the long run.

Our boy is 16m now so has been ST ten months, he goes to bed at 630pm, waves goodnight, rolls over and is asleep by the time we’ve closed his bedroom door. And then we go wake him at 7am. Best thing we’ve ever done, if you’d told me at 5m we’d have a baby who slept I’d have given you my life savings to achieve that 😂

@oblada

“I don't need studies, I just need to look at my child”

Gotcha!

“ Understanding that sleep training may not be what's best for baby”

No evidence for this. But if you’re not interested in evidence that’s fine, just don’t share misinformation like it’s fact when the facts are readily available.

Lavender - the world / you has gone bonkers if you need 'studies' to decide how to parent your child, especially in the most natural way.

A link for those wanting to co sleep with confidence -
www.laleche.org.uk/safe-sleep-the-breastfed-baby/

Let's also remember the OP's baby is 6m, not newborn/prem etc. SIDS is rly no longer statistically relevant.

And no I don't need studies, just common sense, to decide that not trying to change my baby's natural behaviour (if I can help it) is best for my child... It's pretty basic common sense.

Lavender - your child is 16m.. Maybe see how things are in 4-5yrs?
My kids are 9, 6, 4 and 8m. I've managed to avoid sleep training. I've breastfed to sleep till about 2yrs old and stayed with them until they sleep till about 3-4yrs. They've all woken up during the night (more or less frequently) till about 3yrs old. However after that they have been a dream at bedtime. All my kids like bedtime and my oldest 3 are very independent in going to bed/falling asleep.
It could absolutely be sheer luck but personally I've always tried to go with what my kids needed as much as possible. Sometimes it's about restating the problem - is it a problem? Why is it a problem? What can we do to make this less problematic without changing baby's natural behaviour?

Sleep training is bad for babies please don't do that. At that age they don't learn to self soothe, they only learn that if they cry nobody is coming.

This is utter balls. Sleep training does not mean extinction cry it out. There are lots of gentle methods suitable for a 6m old aimed at gradually transitioning them from requiring bf to fall asleep to requiring less. It does not have to involve masses of crying/leaving a baby alone screaming.

It sounds like OP desperately needs more sleep, which is utterly reasonable.

I was sleep trained as a baby. I'm a happy healthy 35 year old with a wonderful secure relationship with parents & siblings. I had a very happy childhood.

My own son & daughter have been gently sleep trained and slept through happily since 6m (DS) and 8m (DD). They are happy confident cuddly little bears who have a strong secure relationship with me.

We all wake up well rested and energetic in the morning and look forward to fun days together.

"while he will help when asked he’s really resistant to committing to consistently doing bedtime for a while."

Why? Is it not his baby too? Did he not want a child?

I have two children, not naturally good sleepers, and I've done a lot of research about sleep. Based on everything I've read, bedtime is the easiest and most important place to start when it comes to changing sleep habits. So if baby is fed to sleep and you want to change to holding/rocking, start at bedtime. If that works best with DH and not you, he needs to do it.

I would also advise using the same method for wakings in the first part of the night and for naps too, it's up to you whether you do it all at the same time (this is what I'd advise as baby learns quicker) or gradually ie night wakings first and naps last.

Obviously holding/rocking to sleep every time is unsustainable so once you've established that (instead of feeding) you will need to change to putting baby down in cot, this is the tricky bit in my experience, some people do have success with PUPD/gradual retreat and very little crying. We didn't and we ended up doing controlled crying as there was actually less crying overall.

Anyway. Your choice of sleep training method is not really the point here. The point is that your husband seems to think the baby is your job. Do you agree with him?

He's working very long hours, did the two of you discuss this before baby was born and consider whether he might be able to reduce his hours at any point?

I'm surprised at the responses by the way, I voted YANBU and I thought most people would. He's getting lovely long uninterrupted stretches of sleep whereas you're being woken up every few hours. It's not the same!

DC2 is 6 months old and exclusively breastfed and we are down to 2 night feeds, I am hoping to cut it down to 1.

I haven’t read all of the comments but the night time wakings may be due to the fact that she’s not tired enough? Mine didn’t nap after 3pm in the afternoon from about 4 months old - can’t remember what they were doing at 6 months - maybe an hour in the morning, then an hour and a half/2 hours at lunchtime - an hour nap in the afternoon seems long to me? It’s so hard to know what to do for the best!

And no I don't need studies, just common sense, to decide that not trying to change my baby's natural behaviour (if I can help it) is best for my child... It's pretty basic common sense.

Yes, not changing a child’s natural behaviour is essential. I suppose that’s why I don’t stop my child eating batteries, dirt, trying to jump in ponds when she can’t swim, running out in to the road etc etc. Natural behaviour isn’t it, always best for the child.

Everyone has different methods I suppose but I’ve always coslept with mine until they were around 12 months so no unbroken sleep really, I just fed them back to sleep and everyone was happy... Appreciate this doesn’t work for everyone but if you’re desperate for sleep I’d just do that personally. I’ve never seen an issue with feeding to sleep either, they don’t do this forever.

@ShirleyPhallus

And no I don't need studies, just common sense, to decide that not trying to change my baby's natural behaviour (if I can help it) is best for my child... It's pretty basic common sense.

Yes, not changing a child’s natural behaviour is essential. I suppose that’s why I don’t stop my child eating batteries, dirt, trying to jump in ponds when she can’t swim, running out in to the road etc etc. Natural behaviour isn’t it, always best for the child.

Night waking is natural and not dangerous for baby. It's actually most likely healthy.

There is no suggestion that it is a problem for baby. It's a problem for mum. My approach is always - let's try and see what we can do to stop this being a problem in the first place before we try to change natural/normal behaviour. Hence why co sleeping is my first response. If this doesn't work then as a last resort yes gentle sleep techniques can help. But lets not pretend we're doing it for baby. It's for mum and is absolutely legitimate if other ways haven't worked for whatever reason.

Love all the people suggesting co-sleeping means "everyone gets more sleep".

Ha. Tell that to my two. I tried it a few times. It just meant they tried to bf near constantly, DD in particular seemed to see it as an excuse to sleep with my nipple in her mouth at all times. i was woken continuously, not to mention being kicked, prodded etc. I got some sleep but it was all very light, and I was exhausted after a few days of it!

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

Love all the people suggesting co-sleeping means "everyone gets more sleep".

Ha. Tell that to my two. I tried it a few times. It just meant they tried to bf near constantly, DD in particular seemed to see it as an excuse to sleep with my nipple in her mouth at all times. i was woken continuously, not to mention being kicked, prodded etc. I got some sleep but it was all very light, and I was exhausted after a few days of it!

It absolutely doesn't work for everyone but statistically speaking most women report better sleep. It's just something to explore not the magical solution to everything. Just like sleep training could work or backfire badly. At least co sleeping is easy enough to try. If it doesn't work then something else can be explored.

There is no suggestion that it is a problem for baby. It's a problem for mum. My approach is always - let's try and see what we can do to stop this being a problem in the first place before we try to change natural/normal behaviour. Hence why co sleeping is my first response. If this doesn't work then as a last resort yes gentle sleep techniques can help. But lets not pretend we're doing it for baby. It's for mum and is absolutely legitimate if other ways haven't worked for whatever reason

MN is absolutely full of martyrs who imply that the parents getting a good night’s sleep is somehow selfish and driven by them and not the baby’s needs. My DD was absolutely knackered by waking every 90 mins through the night. She had dark circles under her eyes and was totally exhausted during the day. My mental health was taking a dive at not getting more than an hour or so of sleep at a time so she wasn’t getting the best parent she could. Babies need decent sleep to let their brains process everything they’ve learnt that day. How on earth is encouraging the baby to sleep not for the benefit of the baby?

I agree Shirley.

MN is absolutely full of martyrs who imply that the parents getting a good night’s sleep is somehow selfish and driven by them and not the baby’s needs. My DD was absolutely knackered by waking every 90 mins through the night. She had dark circles under her eyes and was totally exhausted during the day. *

I had friends with kids like this. The whole family unhappy because the child was waking constantly, even co-sleeping.

Sleep training CAN be of benefit to the child, too. My two sleep like bloody logs having been gently sleep trained.

It is normal for new born babies to wake in the night, as they require regular feeding but at 6 months you should be able to get more than a 2 hour stretch. OPs baby is now in the habit of waking and feeding all night.

Clearly it is a problem for OP, hence posting on here. We could debate the merits of OPs husband working such long hours, but he does and it's a cerebral job which require a level of competence. He needs to be able to put his best foot forward with his new role and I'm guessing OP may be heading back to work herself in 5 or so months and this sleep pattern is unsustainable.

Use the month your DH has off to do some sleep training, there's loads of different people with different methods you can get in to help you.

The idea that you mustn't allow a baby to cry is detrimental to parents. Of course you do your best to see to their needs but a baby crying isn't the worst thing that can happen. It's an evolutionary advantage for a baby to cry in a manner that we find distressing, the baby that cried the loudest would be the baby that was fed first. What about babies with colic, they cry for hours on end for weeks. Babies that need some medical intervention will cry. Twins, one of them may have to cry while you are seeing to the other, large families, the mother is not on hand immediately for the baby.

@ShirleyPhallus

There is no suggestion that it is a problem for baby. It's a problem for mum. My approach is always - let's try and see what we can do to stop this being a problem in the first place before we try to change natural/normal behaviour. Hence why co sleeping is my first response. If this doesn't work then as a last resort yes gentle sleep techniques can help. But lets not pretend we're doing it for baby. It's for mum and is absolutely legitimate if other ways haven't worked for whatever reason

MN is absolutely full of martyrs who imply that the parents getting a good night’s sleep is somehow selfish and driven by them and not the baby’s needs. My DD was absolutely knackered by waking every 90 mins through the night. She had dark circles under her eyes and was totally exhausted during the day. My mental health was taking a dive at not getting more than an hour or so of sleep at a time so she wasn’t getting the best parent she could. Babies need decent sleep to let their brains process everything they’ve learnt that day. How on earth is encouraging the baby to sleep not for the benefit of the baby?

How is trying an easy solution which could work for both without changing baby's behaviour making anyone a martyr? If it works - fab. If not then let's move to something else. Why the immediate focus on changing baby's behaviour by using techniques which ultimately may not benefit baby at all (and may not even work). I don't know your approach to problem solving but I tend to go for the easiest less intrusive option first and then work my way through things. I'm certainly not a martyr. I do believe in attachment parenting but I wouldnt let it be seriously detrimental to my health.

Personally I think it's 'bonkers' that you don't think people should use evidence to parent. Where does that end? Do you not believe in safe sleep guidelines, not brush their teeth (babies often don't like it, so I guess it's unnatural and shouldn't be done!), not follow current advice on weaning, ignore care safety (or should they just not be in anything as unnatural as a car in the first place?).

You're being totally disingenuous, anyway, you were happy to cite the cortisol study until another poster pointed out its flaws, so you do believe in research, just only if it shows what you think it should.

I have no interest in persuading others to sleep train if they don't want to, I think each individual should do what's best for them. For us, as with some PPs, that was sleep training. Cosleeping meant I went from very little sleep to no sleep, so that wasn't a viable option - it also felt inherently unsafe to me instinctively (are my instincts ok, or should I only parent instinctively if it agrees with your instincts?). I don't think sleep training is necessary or compulsory for anyone who either doesn't feel the need or who does but doesn't think it's right for their child. But I just don't think anyone should be making that decision from a point of fear because they've been told that research shows sleep training is harmful when that is simply not true.

If we're trading anecdotes - last night my nearly 3 year old, who we did sleep training with at 8 months, asked to go to bed, actually in a particularly adorable way ('you carry me up, I run out of my petrol now'). He slept 12.5 hours and then called me into his room, where his first words this morning were 'you my gorgeous, mummy' (he later had a tantrum when he wanted grapes but I said he had to wait until I'd finished feeding his newborn brother, who had me up all night, so it wasn't all smooth sailing this morning for anyone wanting to vomit at my saccharine scene! He also doesn't always sleep through - he went through a phase of waking when his brother arrived and he wanted cuddles in the night, so I'm very confident he doesn't believe that he's abandoned or unable to ask for help in the night). I guess my terrible comeuppance for sleep training and the tragic damage to our bond is yet to come.

Hardbackwriter - that's a very long post so I won't answer everything.

No I don't need studies to know that not attending to my children's needs (there is no suggestion from the OP that the child is suffering from the wakings) isn't my first port of call.

I'm not interested in anecdotes, I was responding to another pp who had used their 16m old as an example that it works...

Weaning - I've always done BLW. I think the guidance has changed slightly on this but again BLW feels right and natural to me so I'll continue with that.

I've never suggested sleep training would destroy your child / come back to bite you necessarily. Just pointing out a gentler alternative which may work better.

How is trying an easy solution which could work for both without changing baby's behaviour making anyone a martyr? If it works - fab. If not then let's move to something else. Why the immediate focus on changing baby's behaviour by using techniques which ultimately may not benefit baby at all (and may not even work).
I don't know your approach to problem solving but I tend to go for the easiest less intrusive option first and then work my way through things.
I'm certainly not a martyr. I do believe in attachment parenting but I wouldnt let it be seriously detrimental to my health.

Did you read any of my posts? I said we tried co-sleeping first and it was awful for all of us, and then we tried sleep training thereafter

Shirley - I didn't suggest it to YOU. I'm suggesting it to the OP and you're having a go at me for that.
It didn't work for you - ok, fine, and?

@oblada

Shirley - I didn't suggest it to YOU. I'm suggesting it to the OP and you're having a go at me for that. It didn't work for you - ok, fine, and?

Yep that’s a fair point. I stand by my others, that sleep training is for the benefit of the baby as much as the parents but accept that other bit wasn’t directed specifically at me

Fair enough Shirley thanks
We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether sleep training benefits the child. I don't think so personally but neither am I suggesting you're evil for doing it.