AIBU - DH and baby sleep

[Heartbreakeyes]

I think I probably am being unreasonable here (at least in part) but new mum uncertainty and sleep deprivation mean I’m not quite sure of anything anymore!

DD is 6 months old and is not a good sleeper. She wakes every two hours, often more frequently, throughout the night and apart from a few good spells she always has done. She naps well during the day (around an hour in the morning, 1.5 at lunchtime and 30 minutes to 1 hour in the afternoon). She is EBF and I still feed her to sleep. I’ve tried napping during the day but (a) I get to sleep just as she’s waking up and (b) it feels so miserable doing nothing but looking after a baby and sleeping - I really value having that time to myself.

We have not tried sleep training yet (apart from some failed attempts to put her down drowsy but awake) - we may end up doing it but at the moment would prefer not to as she still seems so young. DH is on board with doing whatever I want.

At the moment DH is working from home but he works long hours, his typical day is about 9-9 but he can be working until 10/11/12 at times. He stops work for an hour in the evening to have dinner and do bathtime. He also gets up with DD and has her for two hours in the morning, usually 6-8 so I can catch up on sleep. He often sleeps in the spare room during the week. I do all the night wakings, though he will help if asked and often does at around 5am. DH is going to be off work for a month in May as he’s changing job.

The result is probably that we have about the same amount of sleep, though his is unbroken and mine is in 1-2 hour chunks. I haven’t slept more than four hours together since DD was born, and it’s very rarely more than 2 hours.

I feel like DH is doing a lot given how much he works but:

1. I really need a longer stretch of sleep soon, but DD wakes up for a lot longer if DH tries to put her down at night instead of me so he’s reluctant to take over any night wakings.

1. DH can put DD to sleep without feeding and I can’t. I have tried copying how he does it (rocking and pacing) but with no luck. Given that all the advice says we need to break the feed to sleep association I’d like him to take the lead on getting her used to bedtime without feeding to sleep. However, while he will help when asked he’s really resistant to committing to consistently doing bedtime for a while.

I suppose in part I just feel like I’m the main parent (unsurprising at I’m on mat leave and still breastfeeding) and am a bit overwhelmed with all the decisions. I feel hard done by doing all the night wakings but then I’m sure DH feels hard done by doing all the early mornings. Any suggestions gratefully received!

YABU = the poor man is doing enough, leave him alone!
YANBU = he could be doing more to help.

Note; I have been diagnosed with PND and anxiety - thankfully both mild and improving so I don’t think it’s relevant but including so as not to drip feed.

YANBU.

We were in the exact same position at six months and couldn’t take it any longer so we sleep trained using the ferber method. Wasn’t easy to handle for us but we remained consistent and it’s been the best thing we’ve ever done. Six months isn’t too young (it’s the recommend age for ferber) and the older they get the more difficult it becomes.

It seems all of your problems here would be solved if you were both able to get good restful sleep each night, something you enter and your baby needs too. I’d look into sleep training tbh because this isn’t sustainable. It’s safe and effective. Our boy sleeps 12hr overnight, 2hr in the day like clockwork, and all of us including him are immeasurably happier in so many ways. Best thing we’ve ever done. They have to learn good sleep habits at some point!

The group respectful sleep training on fb is a good resource for support and info as if you discuss it in some places people can be quite hostile due to myths around it. Do whatever feels right for you but I’m just saying there’s another route here. Good luck!

You say it's a problem for another day but I'm very surprised you haven't discussed how long hours will work with a child. Obviously people make it work but childcare isn't always easy to find for evenings.

I asked if he/you were high earners as long hours only really make sense if you earn a lot or if it's not long term, like you're at the start of your career. Then you have to at least in part use that money to pay for the things you can't do yourself. So could you look at getting in some childcare to plug the gap he is creating with his long hours?

Effectively by him doing long hours in his job he's making you do longer hours solo parenting. Having a baby is hard anyway if one person does say 40 hours a week and the other is on mat leave. So those evenings are going to make a difference.

Just read through the comments and pleased to see so many other posters advising sleep training too! It really is a wonderful tool. We teach our babies many things in their life, and good restful sleep can certainly be one of them.

@FATEdestiny

In the future you may have two (or more) children and be unable to sleep or lie down during the day.

You will regret not doing so when you had chance with your first. I guarantee you.

You are thinking too short term here. BF won't last for long in the grand scheme of things. Having "me time" will come back, it doesmt matter if your me time is squeezed for this short period of time. Anyway, think of sleep as "me time", sleep is a treat for a parent in itself! (Esp the blessed grown-up daytime nap)

I don't understand this logic at all - I have a toddler and a 5 week old and I'm knackered but I don't see what good it would do me now if I'd had more naps 2.5 years ago?

You need to cut down the daytime naps I would say. Waking them up from a nap isn't like putting them down screaming then abandoning them.

I think it sounds like DH works pretty long hours. Would you consider nursery a day a week to get some rest? I am assuming decent salary on his part & decent maternity pay for you too.

huckleberrycare.com/blog/6-month-old-sleep-schedule-and-development

Hi OP,

I can really sympathise with your situation - I went through something very similar with my first child.

Both DP and I were so exhausted we almost ended up resentibg each other (each felt they were doing more than they could handle).

Things started to improve when the sleep improved... what we did:

• move to formula feeding (that already reduced the wakeups by 50%)
• a LOT of solids from 6 months (3 times a day)
• no sleep training but whenever Dc slept putting him back in his cot, even if it took rocking / feeding to get him to sleep
• when he had eaten well during the day, replacing milk with water during the night wakings for a feed

It does get better eventually. By 14 months he was sleeping 12 hours...

Btw, the amount of daytime sleep sounds like a lot. Wheneveer our 6 month old gets more than 2 hours and a half sleep during the day it impacts the night time sleep.

Just a few points:
Sleep training is bullshit. Babies will sleep longer when they are ready for it.
If you are breastfeeding then consider co sleeping. Saved my sanity! I don't do well at all with broken sleep!
And there is NO need to 'break' the feed to sleep association, it is not detrimental, it's very natural and it's also normal for baby to demand to be bf by mum but allow dad to settle them differently. Makes perfect sense to me :).

Just looking at your routine and perhaps the late afternoon nap needs to be shorter.

Also are you feeding solids yet? Could be hungry at night if it's just milk all day.

Oh and re formula - if formula makes baby sleep longer (not at all guaranteed) it would be because it's harder to digest. It's not really for a positive reason. If you can stick to breastfeeding then it would be fantastic for the pair of you. As mentioned before consider expressing and giving dad a bottle to give you a longer break.

At 6months solids are rly just there for fun. The nutrition comes from breastmilk. Solids won't have a higher nutritional or fat value, quite the opposite. Walking are natural. Instead of trying to fight normal (and healthy) baby behaviour see if you can come up with coping strategies such as co-sleeping or asking DH to take over one or two waking etc. Uninterrupted sleep really makes a difference to the mood and energy level in my view.

If baby will take a bottle could DH take her on a morning at the weekend and you sleep in until 11am? I still sleep like a teenager, I appreciate not all adults do

We didn't sleep train, and our 5yo still wakes up in the night. Our 7yo has only recently figured out how to go to sleep rather than passing out from exhaustion. I know it's hard, I did try it and it just felt pointless and like it was never going to work but on reflection I don't think we've done either of our dc any favours. Having said that dd1 was so bloody stubborn I'm not convinced it would have ever worked and now I'll never know!

@Hardbackwriter yeah- I’ve got 2 kids with a 4 year gap and I get loads of time while the older was at nursery/now school

Sleep training all the way. From 6 months both of my breastfed babies slept through 12 hours a night. Makes such a difference. I’d do it with a sleep trailer though, you are more likely to stick with it. She also taught me to ‘feed on waking’ rather than ‘fed to sleep’ which was a real game changer

OP you have my full sympathies, it could have been me writing this post so I know how tough it is. My DD is also 6 months and a terrible sleeper. I get so upset when I read about babies her age sleeping through the night, we average 2 hour chunks on a good night and always have done.

So far we’ve got through by doing similar to you (DH in spare room and taking her for an hour in the mornings) but my overall feeling has been that I’m the one on mat leave so I will do the bulk of the nights, that and I am ebf so there’s only so much DH can do.

Having said that, we can’t go on as we are so we’ve decided to work with a sleep consultant. Like you I really don’t want to use the cry it out method, but we can’t see things changing without help and we have been reassured that this is a much gentler approach which does not involve that and is more tailored to us as a family. Sometimes it helps to take all the decisions out of your hands and for someone impartial to help you and tell you what to do. Not sure if that’s something you would consider, we haven’t started yet but the thought of working with them is already making me feel less stressed so wanted to share in case that could help you too. Good luck with whatever you decide to do xx

OP however else you solve this problem, please don’t ever decide you’re ready for any sleep training involving leaving baby to cry. The thought upsets you for a reason. Research it properly - there are plenty of studies showing it’s bad for baby, linked to anxiety, baby falls asleep out of exhaustion or as a coping mechanism for his distress. Is co-sleeping an option for you? Look at the lullaby trust safe 7, it can be done safely.

Everything @oblada says above is very wise, I would take her advice.

No sleep trainer (waste of money and time) and no gentle sleep training worked for my DD. I wouldn’t ever leave her to cry as I wouldn’t like someone dear to me, leaving me to cry in a room all by myself. Co-sleeping worked for us as she was breastfed. .Since co-sleeping, she hardly ever woke up at night, and if she was hungry, it was easy to feed her. Good luck! Everything changes once a baby enters a relationship. Work something out so that you can sleep longer.

You’re both working extremely hard between the long hours and very broken sleep. I would get a sleep consultant in ASAP, they should be able to work with you to find a method you feel ok with. I know sleep is developmental etc but I had two weeks of second hourly wakings with DD and was about ready to jump off a cliff. I’m not surprised you have PND. You cannot go on like this.

@justforthis7

OP however else you solve this problem, please don’t ever decide you’re ready for any sleep training involving leaving baby to cry. The thought upsets you for a reason. Research it properly - there are plenty of studies showing it’s bad for baby, linked to anxiety, baby falls asleep out of exhaustion or as a coping mechanism for his distress. Is co-sleeping an option for you? Look at the lullaby trust safe 7, it can be done safely.

There is absolutely no research showing this - when people say there is they always turn out to mean: a) research on babies subjected to long-term neglect, usually in Romanian orphanages, which is not a comparable situation b) one study that looked at cortisol levels in babies being sleep trained but had no control group and demonstrated no consequences of temporarily raised cortisol, and so shows us nothing

I chose to use gradual retreat rather than controller crying because I also instinctively disliked the idea of him crying alone, but it's just not true that there's the wealth of evidence to prove it's harmful that people claim. The most comprehensive studies show no impact on attachment or child behaviour, e.g. pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2016/05/21/peds.2015-1486?sso=1&sso_redirect_count=3&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3A%20No%20local%20token&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local+token

Hardbackwriter - I haven't got the time to look this up but to be honest I genuinely can't comprehend why anyone would do an actual study to prove or disprove the detrimental impact of letting a baby cry. It shows that our world has gone truly bonkers if we need a study before we conclude that letting a baby cry or generally not being there for baby isn't likely to yield positive results long term.
The raised cortisol study was to show that a baby being quiet wasn't content but actually potentially quite stressed.
My approach is always to go with the flow/go with what baby is expressing they need IF I can. If I absolutely cannot meet their needs (too knackered, concerns re my own MH) then I will look at what I can do to adjust baby's behaviour. I was lucky that co-sleeping and a proactive DH helped me cope with my first child waking up every 2-3 hours for the first 18months (especially as i was back at work for most of that time).
Hence why those are my suggestions, over any sort of sleeping 'training'.

When are you going back to work @Heartbreakeyes? If you work similar hours to your DH you won’t be able to cope on so little sleep

@Hardbackwriter managed to respond before I returned to the thread but I will share some actual evidence based info below for OP and others reading to clear some things up. It’s a myth that sleep training is harmful. Not everyone has to sleep train their baby but it IS harmful to spread misinformation about how bad it is.

Also quite horrified that people are suggesting unsafe sleep practices such as bedsharing as an alternative to a safe, well researched sleep training technique, but sadly not surprised.

I don’t expect posters who’ve already decided sleep training is damaging to bother educating themselves but others might find it helpful :) If anyone wants a good starting point for themselves to investigate the evidence around sleep training there’s an excellent, non biased and evidence based chapter in the book Cribsheet by Oster which is great, looks at all of the relevant major studies and examines the results and their applicability, for example the Middlemiss study is often cited as ‘proof’ ST is harmful but it’s been thoroughly debunked, the information that came from that study was unusable due to their methods.

No peer-reviewed research has reported detrimental effects from sleep training.

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/4/643

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2016/05/21/peds.2015-1486

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/122/3/e621

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/3/e203

Here's a look at the Middlemiss study, which is usually cited by people against sleep training or extinction (CIO): expectingscience.com/2016/04/21/the-middlemiss-study-tells-us-nothing-about-sleep-training-cry-it-out-or-infant-stress/

And here are the authors of some of the studies on child abuse and neglect say that anti-sleep-training people are mis-citing their work: ideas.time.com/2012/05/10/the-science-behind-dr-sears-does-it-stand-up/

A little information on the "cortisol" fear.

"In terms of their effects, the difference between short-term and chronic stress is one not of degree, but of kind. Short-term stress enhances memory; chronic stress impairs it. Short-term stress boosts the immune system; chronic stress weakens it.
So where does that leave us? A little stress, even in infancy, is fine, if not beneficial, but too much for too long is very, very bad.

Do we know exactly where sleep training fits in this spectrum? Just how much stress does a baby experience during cry-it-out?

The short answer is that we don’t know for certain. Everything we do know, however, suggests that this amount of stress, in the context of a warm, loving family, is just fine.

Sleep training is not only not harmful, it is beneficial. Successful sleep training can decrease depression and chronic stress in the parents, and this benefits parents and their babies. Unlike sleep training, having a depressed mother during early childhood has been shown, repeatedly, to be linked with worse long-term outcomes for children."

expectingscience.com/2016/04/12/critics-of-cry-it-out-fundamentally-misunderstand-how-stress-affects-the-brain/

" To measure the effects on the babies, the researchers did something interesting: they measured the level of cortisol, a stress hormone, in the babies’ saliva. They also asked the mothers about their levels of stress. Twelve months later, they looked for any emotional or behavioral problems in the babies, and they also did testing to see how attached the babies were to their mothers.

Here’s what they found. The babies in the graduated extinction group and the bedtime fading group both fell asleep faster and had less stress than the control group — and not only that, their mothers were less stressed than the control group mothers. Of the three groups, the extinction group babies were less likely to wake up again during the night. And when it came to emotional or behavioral problems, or attachment, all three groups were the same.

This means that it’s okay to let your baby cry a little. It’s not only okay, it may lead to more sleep all around. Which makes everyone happier."

www.health.harvard.edu/blog/new-study-says-okay-let-babies-cry-night-201605319774

@LavenderLollies some brilliant points there, thank you.

There is a massive load of misinformation spouted about sleep training. It doesn’t just mean leaving the baby to cry. Cry it out, does, but I really don’t know ANYONE who would actually just leave their baby to cry forever.

Controlled crying is a different beast, where you return to the baby in intervals and soothe them until they fall asleep. We did it with our baby, who was waking about every 90 mins through the night. By night 3 she was sleeping for 12 hours a night, and cried for about an hour total in those 3 nights. By contrast, before that, she was crying for about an hour every night, but just every time she woke up.

It saved a huge amount of crying long term, plus me and my husband got to sleep through ourselves and our baby is so much happier. It was really the best thing we did for our family.

As a side note, we did try co sleeping and hated it. DD would just try and suck at me all night long which meant I got almost no sleep and meant she was still waking up so much. I really dislike how it’s touted as a solve-all approach, when for many families it just doesn’t work

Anyway OP this is probably not all that helpful to have people debating the safety of sleep training on your thread, so apologies, I just believe it’s unfair to people struggling with non sleeping babies to be given inaccurate information that might lead them to avoid using methods that are safe and effective and can help you get more sleep so wanted to clarify that side of things. It would be sad if someone were put off giving ST a try because they’d been told myths about it as if they were facts.

Whatever you decide to do I hope you get some good sleep soon. I will say that sleep training revolutionised our lives as a family, it’s not something to fear once you’re ready. It’s not easy but giving the gift of good restful sleep each and every night to your little one is worth it, it’s one of the best and most impactful things we’ve ever done for him and has set him up for a lifetime of good sleep which is so crucial for brain development. But it’s a very personal choice and whatever you decide I really hope you figure something soon ❤️

Friends who’ve used sleep consultants found that they just applied the same evidence based methods you can research and apply yourself (for example ferber, extinction, disappearing chair), research found that the method you use doesn’t really matter, they’re all similarly effective, what matters is consistency so choosing something you can stick with. We decided on ferber as we wanted to make sure he still knew we were there but some babies find check ins more frustrating so extinction is a better option. The key is once you commit to it to see it through and be extremely consistent. Support can always be helpful though so a sleep consultant might be good on that side, someone who you know is going to ask in the morning how it went and whether you stuck to it!

And a little information for people advising OP to take up a sleeping practice that will put her child at risk:

More than 69% of all sleep-related infant deaths are associated with bed-sharing.

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/134/2/e406

Even absent all other risk factors, bed-sharing nearly TRIPLES the risk of SIDS, plus adds new risks for suffocation, strangulation, and other types of sleep-related infant death.

bmjopen.bmj.com/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=23793691

The most conservative estimate shows that the risk of suffocation is 20X higher when infants sleep in adult beds instead of on cribs.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14523181/

Even absent all other risk factors and done "safely", bed-sharing nearly TRIPLES the risk of SIDS, plus adds new risks for other types of sleep-related infant death, including suffocation, strangulation, etc. This study used data from 1472 SIDS cases, 4679 controls, 19 studies in U.K., Europe and Australasia
bmjopen.bmj.com/content/3/5/e002299.long
(This study specifically separates bed-sharing from couch-sharing and other places, all bed-sharing deaths were in the parents' bed.)

Bed sharing for sleep when the parents do not smoke or take alcohol or drugs increases the risk of SIDS. Risks associated with bed sharing are greatly increased when combined with parental smoking, maternal alcohol consumption and/or drug use. A substantial reduction of SIDS rates could be achieved if parents avoided bed sharing.

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/3/5/e002299.long