To remind those protesting in the UK at the moment

[Changednamesorry]

A reminder to those currently protesting in the UK.

"No Justice No Peace" isn't a general slogan you can just co-opt . It has a long history of being a slogan used to protest violence against black people at the hands of white people, usually (but not always) police.

It's not ok to appropriate this slogan. That is whitewashing and drowning out black protest about black issues by at the very least diluting the message about the horror of racially motivated violence. It is the activist equivalent of being an "all lives matter" type.

Please consider how you protest and make sure you aren't damaging or drowning out other causes.

YANBU.

Seriously? That is what you got out of the fact that the Tories are attempting to sneak through legislation that will effectively provide to power to ban all protests, regardless of whether the people at them are black, white or any other colour under the sun? If this legislation, being passed at a time when protest is already banned (how convenient) then it won't matter whose lives matter - you won't be able to lawfully protest.

This government wants you to have the right to protest peacefully and quietly in your own home and on your own, so that your voice is never heard. But by all means lets reduce the importance of that message by have ownership arguments about some slogans.

Besides which, there were people at the demonstration in Bristol who were expressing views on other matters, including anti-lockdown views. How do you know that any such slogans that you saw were not black people lending their support to the protest against the legislation. Because they won't be protesting, peacefully or otherwise, about black lives if this Bill passes.

It's a rubbish slogan but I don't see why it can't be adopted by anyone if they are unable to think of a good one for themselves.

Presumably you are up in arms when you see white people taking a knee at sporting events too?

Because when you take a slogan which has been used since the 1980s to protest violence against black people perpetrated by white people and start to use it for something else you are blocking out the original message which is yet another example of black voices being silenced and whitewashing.

Of course it is not anything like white people taking a knee in sporting events in solidarity. Its also not the same as white people shouting No Justice No Peace in support of the protests against black people suffering racially motivated violence because that would be people using the slogan and gesture for the same cause. That's not the same as what is happening here . What would be the same would be if a group of people started taking the knee means saying it was now a gesture used to protest something unrelated to its original meaning, thus silencing the original meaning.

Sorry OP but what a load of crap

I think at the moment all our rights are being held on a knife edge. It's a time when all of us, every single gender, sexuality, race and religion needs to come together and stand up for ALL our rights.
Let's not make it us and them please

Do you expect protestors to know the origin of any slogan they use OP? That seems a stretch.

The protests in the U.K. are as much for the benefit of black people as they are white. We are facing a PEOPLE issue here, not a coloured one right now. There can never be justice for anyone - and considering how badly this new bill affects BLM protests, or are you ignoring the fact that the part of the bill giving a 10 year prison sentence for defacing or destroying statues is specifically aimed at the BLM and will therefore affect black people participating in their right to protest racism and police violence a hell of a lot more than it does white people?

*though I would like to add, there’s always an issue around race and skin colour here, I will never deny that. But right now this affects everyone of every colour and race

And you see here is the problem. You are assuming that the issue is that white peopt are saying No Justice No Peace.

That's not the problem.

The problem is the attempt to change the meaning of No Justice No Peace (which, by the way predates the Black Lives Matter movement by about 35 years but which is a slogan used to prott racially motivated violence against black people) to be a general slogan. It isn't. It is a particular slogan used for a particular cause.

Imagine if a group of men started using #metoo to talk about mental health and depression issued affecting men? That wouldn't be ok either, would it , because it would make the #metoo movement appear suddenly all about men's issues as would drown out female protest.

That's the same type of thing as what is happening here.

@LizzieMacQueen

Do you expect protestors to know the origin of any slogan they use OP? That seems a stretch.

Whoever started the use of the slogan for the current protest must be aware of its origins.

@Changednamesorry ok, so what slogan do you suggest instead?

We may personally not see the issue, but you’re telling us this is an issue even if we’re ignorant of it. I can accept that, but I don’t have any suggestions on how to stop the use of it outside of its original intended use

That's not the same as what is happening here

Really? So what is happening here? You have no idea, do you? I haven't even seen any placards with that slogan on it. Maybe some people did use it. Maybe they were black. I don't know. Neither do you. Isn't it you that is drowning the voices of legitimate protest in the UK by trying to change the narrative from what the protests are about to one about your cause?

It's this sort of division and exclusivity that lets those in power win time after time - instead of uniting as the disempowered to a cause that is common to all of us (in this case, the right for everyone to protest) let's have a row about why our slogan belongs to us and you can't have it. That really moves the cause forward. Instead of discussing why the right to protest is a fundamental human right, or the timing of trying to slip through legislation of this kind whilst bans to protest are in place because of Covid, lets argue about who own four English words.

I have to admit I didn't know the origins of the slogan but like a pp this would impact the rights of everyone to protest. Surely it would effect BLM protests and by protecting the rights to protest we're defending everyone including BLM protestors.

I do think we need to consider the bigger picture rather on focusing on divisive issues.

I think you have a fair point, OP. There are plenty of other slogans to use and some respect for the long and noble history of black protest movements is not too much to ask for. The analogy you give is illuminating. However, I'm not sure it's worth coming down too hard on the people who used it to protest the new bill - they probably didn't know its origin.

@Moondust001 I don’t think it’s on us to tell a black person why they’re wrong to be upset at the use of a slogan designed to raise awareness at the violence blacks people experience. The point about men commandeering the #metoo movement for something other than the sexual harassment and assault women experience is extremely valid. I would be apocalyptic at yet further erasure to the violence women experience at the hands of men. I think the upset at something designed to raise awareness at the violence black people experience being commandeered for something else is understandable.

I do however agree that we’re facing an issue we all need to be untied on. We all need to work together, we all need to put aside our differences if any meaningful change is going to happen before we all find ourselves living under a dictatorship.

*at the violence black people experience

Also, the us-and-them distinctions made on this thread are noteworthy. It would be best not to assume a 'we'. I'm white and sympathise with the OP.

I totally get where you are coming from OP. I agree. It’s futile posting on MN about it though, there are so many people on here who enjoy being wilfully ignorant about race relations.

@valadon68

Also, the us-and-them distinctions made on this thread are noteworthy. It would be best not to assume a 'we'. I'm white and sympathise with the OP.

Ditto. I don’t know why I read these threads, all they do is make me angry.

[quote CatsHairEverywhere]@Moondust001 I don’t think it’s on us to tell a black person why they’re wrong to be upset at the use of a slogan designed to raise awareness at the violence blacks people experience. The point about men commandeering the #metoo movement for something other than the sexual harassment and assault women experience is extremely valid. I would be apocalyptic at yet further erasure to the violence women experience at the hands of men. I think the upset at something designed to raise awareness at the violence black people experience being commandeered for something else is understandable.

I do however agree that we’re facing an issue we all need to be untied on. We all need to work together, we all need to put aside our differences if any meaningful change is going to happen before we all find ourselves living under a dictatorship.[/quote]
Excuse me? Who is the "us" in this sentence? Am I black or white? Male or female? You have no idea what my skin colour is, what my ethnicity is, or what my experience of oppressive colonial power on my people is? So do not make assumptions about me and do not lecture me on what I can or cannot think based on your erroneous assumptions. What you want to say or do (and the OP has never said that they are black, that is also an assumption) is up to you, but don't put words in my mouth - I didn't say that they were wrong to be upset (if they are) about something, but I did say that this issue is bigger than everyone. Much as I despise the right wing, it is as much about their right to protest (and mine to be out there protesting about them!). The minute we say that the right to protest only belongs to those we agree with is the minute we give up all democracy and all justice.

And I have still be be shown any evidence that the phrase was used by protesters or that those protesters were not black.

And for your information, Charles Kingsley described "my people" as "little apes sitting by the roadside" as he passed. What do you think that makes me????

@Moondust001

That's not the same as what is happening here

Really? So what is happening here? You have no idea, do you? I haven't even seen any placards with that slogan on it. Maybe some people did use it. Maybe they were black. I don't know. Neither do you. Isn't it you that is drowning the voices of legitimate protest in the UK by trying to change the narrative from what the protests are about to one about your cause?

It's this sort of division and exclusivity that lets those in power win time after time - instead of uniting as the disempowered to a cause that is common to all of us (in this case, the right for everyone to protest) let's have a row about why our slogan belongs to us and you can't have it. That really moves the cause forward. Instead of discussing why the right to protest is a fundamental human right, or the timing of trying to slip through legislation of this kind whilst bans to protest are in place because of Covid, lets argue about who own four English words.

haven't even seen any placards with that slogan on it. Maybe some people did use it. Maybe they were black. I don't know. Neither do you.

Eh? It doesnt matter if they were black or not. It's not about the colour/race of the individual person using it. I think the OP has been clear (also through most recent comment) that its about the 'purpose' behind the slogan and the meaning rather than 'who' is saying it. It's not saying the slogan is only owned by black people, anyone can use it..but when protesting about treatment of black people. I.e. the subject is what matters. I think her #metoo analogy is a good one.

Oof @Moondust001 just saw your response to CatsHair...I think you've misunderstood slightly and this is getting needlessly overcharged. Again, I dont think the issue is about the race of individual people using the slogan or even posting on here. By 'us' I would assume CatsHair means 'anonymous MN users'/ 'collective voices'...its not making any assumptions about your ethnicity or background. I understand the point to be that if people are poitning out that the slogan is co-opted from a different movement and they feel it is diluting the message, then it is not really our place (by 'our', that is the collective, not an individual group of gender/race/age etc) to tell them 'no, I want to use it anyway, I dont care about how it affects this other movement'

@Tiktokersmiracle

Sorry OP but what a load of crap

I think at the moment all our rights are being held on a knife edge. It's a time when all of us, every single gender, sexuality, race and religion needs to come together and stand up for ALL our rights.
Let's not make it us and them please

Yes, this.

You doin't get to gatekeep slogans and I also wouldn't give a shit if men used #metoo.

I think it's always a problem when you say one group of people cannot use something because it belongs to another group of people.

Also, the us-and-them distinctions made on this thread are noteworthy. It would be best not to assume a 'we'. I'm white and sympathise with the OP.

Yep, same here.

When people say let's not make it about us and them, they are usually speaking from a position of privilege. It's easy to ignore the concerns of a disadvantaged group when you are not affected by them.