To remind those protesting in the UK at the moment

[Changednamesorry]

A reminder to those currently protesting in the UK.

"No Justice No Peace" isn't a general slogan you can just co-opt . It has a long history of being a slogan used to protest violence against black people at the hands of white people, usually (but not always) police.

It's not ok to appropriate this slogan. That is whitewashing and drowning out black protest about black issues by at the very least diluting the message about the horror of racially motivated violence. It is the activist equivalent of being an "all lives matter" type.

Please consider how you protest and make sure you aren't damaging or drowning out other causes.

LOL at the idea you can baggsy protest chants (see also football songs).

@Changednamesorry

And you see here is the problem. You are assuming that the issue is that white peopt are saying No Justice No Peace.

That's not the problem.

The problem is the attempt to change the meaning of No Justice No Peace (which, by the way predates the Black Lives Matter movement by about 35 years but which is a slogan used to prott racially motivated violence against black people) to be a general slogan. It isn't. It is a particular slogan used for a particular cause.

Imagine if a group of men started using #metoo to talk about mental health and depression issued affecting men? That wouldn't be ok either, would it , because it would make the #metoo movement appear suddenly all about men's issues as would drown out female protest.

That's the same type of thing as what is happening here.

I wouldn't have an issue with a man using #metoo if they've suffered sexual or mental abuse either. To suggest that would suggest that men aren't victims of sexual violence and that's incorrect. It's try more women are likely to be the victim but male on male and female on male domestic violence does occur so they would be more than welcome to support via that hashtag

I think it's always a problem when you say one group of people cannot use something because it belongs to another group of people.

In the context of thoughtful debate, do you still think that's the case? Once a single movement starts to fight fire on several fronts, they shoot themselves in the foot. Their original goals are not going to be fulfilled (unless in the rare case where a mutually beneficial strategy is explicitly agreed upon). And I think slogans work along the same lines. You need them to be immediately reminiscent of one cause in order to be most impactful (otherwise we're then tempted to start drawing false equivalences, etc).

Also, my last post was hypocritical, apologies - pp is right in pointing out that we shouldn't be assuming skin colour of posters (nor political affiliation based on skin colour).

I think if we foster a culture of honest debate about these kinds of things which are really inconsequential, we don't need to worry so much about group membership splintering. It's not as though we'd lose anything, whether directly or indirectly by having compromised 'free speech', if we switched to another slogan.

@AlexaShutUp

Also, the us-and-them distinctions made on this thread are noteworthy. It would be best not to assume a 'we'. I'm white and sympathise with the OP.

Yep, same here.

When people say let's not make it about us and them, they are usually speaking from a position of privilege. It's easy to ignore the concerns of a disadvantaged group when you are not affected by them.

Since that's after my asking not to make it us and them, and you're suggesting I come from a place of privilege, pull up a chair and let me enlighten you and show why that is a bullshit assumption

I am a survivor of domestic and child abuse. I was mentally abused by my parents, but especially the female I was forced to refer to as my "mother"
My "father" would know she was lying but yet, for his own sake or she would make him miserable, he thought nothing of being violent towards me from as young as I can remember. Instead of putting me, his child, first, he did it for his own quiet life.
As a result of their combined abuse, I tried to kill myself, several times, between age 14 and 17.
I ended up in an abusive relationship after I ran away from home at 16. I became a substance misuser to blot out the fact my life, for as long as I could remember, had been one of violence and fear.

I met DP when I was 18 and he turned my life around. I was so conditioned to do as I was told and not make decisions for myself because apparently I was stupid and thick and unworthy of choices, I would ask him permission to eat and to buy food in the supermarket that he didn't like. He would laugh and say I could buy what I wanted but I would get panicked that actually, when I got back to my flat, he may teach me a lesson (he never has and never would). I lived in constant fear for so long.

I'm 40 now and he has made me into a fully functioning human.
Do you know why I was never taken into care? Despite the concerns of my teachers over years? Because the bruises were always hidden, and I didn't dare show them. But even so, I was damaged by the mental abuse alone, that teachers, more than one, called social services.
But what caused me to be left with these sick fuckers, was the fact my parents were married. They didn't wear sportswear. They owned their home. They both had good jobs.
They didn't fit the narrative of bad parents. So apparently, I was a liar and made to go to child psychologists. I was called an actress. And an attention seeker.
Years later, I asked for a full investigation into why I was let down and that was the conclusion. I read paperwork that said parents are "well dressed and spoken, married and homeowners" so "very little chance of abuse due to their position".

Sorry to write this here. But I'm sick of every time someone begs for us all to work together, that to work against each other gives the people who want to remove our rights the opportunity to do so, I get told I'm "coming from a place of privilege".
Am I fuck to put it mildly.

@valadon68

I think it's always a problem when you say one group of people cannot use something because it belongs to another group of people.

In the context of thoughtful debate, do you still think that's the case? Once a single movement starts to fight fire on several fronts, they shoot themselves in the foot. Their original goals are not going to be fulfilled (unless in the rare case where a mutually beneficial strategy is explicitly agreed upon). And I think slogans work along the same lines. You need them to be immediately reminiscent of one cause in order to be most impactful (otherwise we're then tempted to start drawing false equivalences, etc).

Also, my last post was hypocritical, apologies - pp is right in pointing out that we shouldn't be assuming skin colour of posters (nor political affiliation based on skin colour).

I think if we foster a culture of honest debate about these kinds of things which are really inconsequential, we don't need to worry so much about group membership splintering. It's not as though we'd lose anything, whether directly or indirectly by having compromised 'free speech', if we switched to another slogan.

I just don't agree with saying that one group of people cannot use something. I don't like it. I actually despise it. Ideally you want the slogan to be impactful and meaningful to your cause. If using a previously used slogan adds to your cause - fine. If using that particular slogan causes debate that distracts from your actual message, then probably best to not use it. But someone saying that you can't use it just does not sit well with me.

@Tiktokersmiracle, I'm really sorry about all that has happened to you, but if you are white, none of that negates the fact that you will not have been the victim of racism.

It is possible to be privileged and therefore lacking in awareness in one area while simultaneously being very disadvantaged in other areas. People who have never had to think about race will not necessarily understand its significance to those for whom it has been a defining aspect of their lives.

Just to clarify for the us and themmers.

I'm white.

My son is black.

Thank you. I agree. Slogans and words are important and even more now in the world of hashtags.

The reason I used the #metoo analogy is this, really. Imagine in next week when you type in #metoo the first things that come up are men talking about their issues surrounding loneliness and emotional expression. Would that be OK?

Of course not.

YANBU. There was a thread recently suggesting we co-opt Black Lives Matter and launch Womens Lives Matters.

The #Me Too movement? Also created by a black woman.

Why do people hijack movements created by black people?!

@valadon68 sorry my last post was meant as a reply to you.

The @ didn't work for some reason

@Cadent good grief this is exactly the problem. And even in this case they changed a word.

It's also important to notice that the movement against violence against Asian people uses the slogan Stop Asian Hate, not Asian Lives Matter.

It does matter because issues get silenced.

Literally that is not what is being said here and your angry response is not reasonable.

On multiple occasions throughout the threws it has beenase clear that the issue is not with white people supporting black causes, not at all, quite the opposite is true. As a white person it is a responsibility to do this.

The isaut is co-opting slogans used to promote black causes this diverting attention from their true meaning.

@AlexaShutUp never said that you were clueless and priveliged regardless. She said you have benefited from white privelige. This is true of all white people on the simple founding that any issues encountered in your life were hot compounded and worsened by the additional impact of racism.

If you consider yourself "an ally" it's pretty important to understand that regardless of any personal issues you have, you don't also have racism to contend with. That is white privilege. You can benefit from white privilege without being priveliged in other ways.

What does white privileged mean ?

I mean all our kids go to the same schools. What ever their colour. They get the same education. We have the same benefits system. We have the same housing system.

@Forthis1

What does white privileged mean ?

I mean all our kids go to the same schools. What ever their colour. They get the same education. We have the same benefits system. We have the same housing system.

I don’t know if this is naivety or ignorance.

What does white privileged mean ?

I mean all our kids go to the same schools. What ever their colour. They get the same education. We have the same benefits system. We have the same housing system.

I think the very fact that you have to ask this is evidence of white privilege in action. The fact that you have not ever had to even think about the impact of race in your life is white privilege. It doesn't seem like a big deal to us because it simply doesn't affect us, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have a very real impact on people's lives.

I'm asking so that it can be explained. So why reply in that way . Maybe if you actually explained to me I would get a better understanding. Is it not about educating people to understand better. A comment like that does not help.

@Forthis1 - genuine question, why don't you Google it? Don't you think it's exhausting for black/BAME people and allies to keep explaining?

There is so much available on the internet, in easy to understand articles.

Sorry, I was actually attempting to explain.

White privilege relates to the fact that white people don't generally have to consider their race as an issue because it doesn't put them at a disadvantage. For many white people, race is simply a non-issue, something that they have never really had to think about. People of colour do not have the freedom not to think about race because it impacts deeply on their day to day experience.

It is that freedom from even having to consider race which reflects white privilege. And one of the markers of that privilege is that many of us don't even recognise that we have it because we are blissfully unaware of how it impacts on those who don't have it.

@AlexaShutUp

Sorry, I was actually attempting to explain.

White privilege relates to the fact that white people don't generally have to consider their race as an issue because it doesn't put them at a disadvantage. For many white people, race is simply a non-issue, something that they have never really had to think about. People of colour do not have the freedom not to think about race because it impacts deeply on their day to day experience.

It is that freedom from even having to consider race which reflects white privilege. And one of the markers of that privilege is that many of us don't even recognise that we have it because we are blissfully unaware of how it impacts on those who don't have it.

Thank you for explaining. But I don't get the privilege bit ? I'm sorry if I sound like an idiot but I'm trying to get it hence why I have asked. I'm not educated. I went to a school with learning difficulties. When working its low paid job. I'm classed as living in poverty. I'm classed as homeless. How is that privilege? Or am I just not getting it?

Or am I just not getting it?

You're just not getting it.

I think the word privilege is confusing for people, because we tend to associate it with economic privilege. From what you have said, you are living in poverty and you are disadvantaged as a result of that. You probably have to think about money quite a lot, whereas someone with economic privilege doesn't have to even consider whether they can afford to cover their basic needs - they just take it for granted that they will have enough.

There are other types of privilege though as well, race being one of them. If you're white, you probably don't have to think about race very much or worry about whether you or your kids will have to deal with discrimination. You just take it for granted that you won't be treated unfairly because of your skin colour. People of colour can't make those assumptions and have to think about these things quite a lot. They have a different type of disadvantage.

Some people of colour might be privileged in other ways, e.g. economically. So they might benefit from being economically privileged while still being at a disadvantage because of their race. You are the opposite - privileged because of your race but still at a disadvantage because of your economic circumstances.

Some people of colour will be disadvantaged economically and because of their race. That makes life hard on multiple different levels, and while it doesn't mean that you struggle any less, it does mean that they struggle a little more.

@AlexaShutUp

Or am I just not getting it?

You're just not getting it.

I think the word privilege is confusing for people, because we tend to associate it with economic privilege. From what you have said, you are living in poverty and you are disadvantaged as a result of that. You probably have to think about money quite a lot, whereas someone with economic privilege doesn't have to even consider whether they can afford to cover their basic needs - they just take it for granted that they will have enough.

There are other types of privilege though as well, race being one of them. If you're white, you probably don't have to think about race very much or worry about whether you or your kids will have to deal with discrimination. You just take it for granted that you won't be treated unfairly because of your skin colour. People of colour can't make those assumptions and have to think about these things quite a lot. They have a different type of disadvantage.

Some people of colour might be privileged in other ways, e.g. economically. So they might benefit from being economically privileged while still being at a disadvantage because of their race. You are the opposite - privileged because of your race but still at a disadvantage because of your economic circumstances.

Some people of colour will be disadvantaged economically and because of their race. That makes life hard on multiple different levels, and while it doesn't mean that you struggle any less, it does mean that they struggle a little more.

This is so well put @AlexaShutUp.

Thank you @FloraFauna27, I'm glad it made sense!

I think the op is unreasonable as I don't believe that people should have to research every turn of phrase and how those phrases have been used worldwide before using them

I think a number of other posters are much more unreasonable.., how can you grow up in the uk and not realise that the same opportunities are not made available uniformly to all ethnic groups

@AlexaShutUp

Thank you *@FloraFauna27*, I'm glad it made sense!

Yes. You've explained this well and with patience. We could do with having it "pinned" IYSWIM