To want social housing for most

[Jillybons]

I find it strange that in the U.K. we are so protective and proud of public healthcare and see it as a universal right regardless of household income (which I fully support).

But when it comes to public housing we vilify it and criticise people who have public houses as ‘less’ than those who rent privately or own houses.

Shouldn’t public housing be the standard for 90% of the population and private housing be the ‘option’ just like private healthcare?

What do you think?

I sort of agree, private rent should be cut out completely and all rented homes should be regulated, capped, and fully managed by a housing association or similar, but still with different prices so people can chose what they can afford, or you can own. No private rent.

Sansaplans you are right. I would say your sister's difficult circumstances are exactly what social housing should be there for. It should not be there to provide life long housing in a flashy new build for someone who decided to have 3 kids by 2 dad's and not work.

Perhaps my friend is snobby but it's true to say the social housing tenants don't behave like the other people on the estate and it does make the resale on your house lower.

Maybe my use of "free" was inaccurate but low rent, often having benefits to help cover that cost, all repairs covered for you. In the last month I've paid out £18,000 on new windows and £1000 on roof repairs and £200 for septic tank emptying and service and £100 on a boiler service. All of that would have been done for me if I was in social housing so it's not that straight forward to just discuss rent paid. It's all the added bonuses.

I digress anyway. My point was simply that the norm should be to sort your own housing out and when you absolutely can't then the state step in to support you for the time you need it.

I want to clear up some myths.

People in SH don’t work hard - well you can fuck off with that attitude quite frankly! Yes some are in receipt of benefits but I, and many others I’ve known in SH have worked very hard! We just haven’t had the opportunities some of you have had. With 2 kids to raise alone (left abusive partner) and a full time job (low wage) I worked extremely bloody hard. But no way could I save up for a deposit, and my credit rating was screwed from debts incurred by my ex. Yes it may have been a “bad choice” to be with my ex but plenty of people make mistakes like that. Go to the relationships board and there’s plenty.

You don’t get a choice in where you live - to a degree it’s true, but you can exchange. I have done so multiple times and now live in a lovely house that I did choose for myself.

The houses are substandard/basic - again this depends on the property. The tenant I swapped with, had a new kitchen put in when they lived here, so I don’t have the standard council kitchen. I’ve decorated everywhere, redid the bathroom etc. If you have a lifetime tenancy, which is what the OP is advocating, then making your home nice isn’t a waste of money.

Social housing is paid for by the taxpayer - I live in a HA property. They are a business. My rent is adjusted according to their profits for the year. They charge what they need to, to keep running and keep building. So actually my rent is helping to build more homes! I don’t claim any benefits.

I would like to see more access to SH, just so maybe people can adjust their attitude to it! Council housing was started with the intention of being “for all”. But Thatcher and subsequent governments put paid to that. Which is a shame.

The biggest problem isn't with providing a SH for all, but being able to deal with the demand for expanding families over time. If anyone watched that channel 4 council house series on a while back, a couple are given a 1 bed SH property. Three years later they have 2 children in said property, the couple have MH issues due to overcrowding and are saying it is ridiculous that they have been on waiting list for 18 months and haven't been rehoused yet.
OTOH Jean lives in a 4 bed maisonette where she brought up her five dc, who have all left home now. The council want Jean to downsize to a one bed, but shes refusing to do so until they offer her one in the same area.
There simply is not enough adequate stock to accommodate everybody.

The problem here is the sense of entitlement. Why did family number one had more children in a house that wasn't big enough? Before I had more children I would think if my house could accommodate them. If it couldn't I would either have to foot the cost of moving or not have more if I couldn't afford it.

Person number 2 shouldn't have a say in this. The original agreement should state that the house is yours for the length of time you need it. Then you give it up.

You would hit a stumbling block once you got to retirement age. More retired people would need assistance, as presumably no income, other than state pension, so you would need government help. As it stands, home ownership means most pensioners have no mortgage payments at the age of retirement, but if renting, payment of rent would obviously be payable til death. The only option would be for compulsory substantial payment into a private pension, which isn’t doable by a lot of the population.

One of the larger drivers for property ownership for me is to be mortgage free for retirement. I am currently on track to have it paid off by the time I am 65 and retirement age will be 68 unless it goes up again. So when my income reduces at pension age, I will have no rent or mortgage to pay, whereas renting in social housing would continue to be a financial drain.

"Maybe my use of "free" was inaccurate but low rent, often having benefits to help cover that cost, all repairs covered for you. In the last month I've paid out £18,000 on new windows and £1000 on roof repairs and £200 for septic tank emptying and service and £100 on a boiler service. All of that would have been done for me if I was in social housing so it's not that straight forward to just discuss rent paid. It's all the added bonuses.*

Ah yes bottom of the range windows once yours are falling apart or unsafe, the bare minimum legal safety checks, and again, limited repairs to a low standard. What a bonus.

There is a vested interest by certain elements of society to keep house prices high, so there is no incentive for easily available, affordable and good quality housing. Many politicians, especially Tories, are landowners or have a BTL empire so they would never build more affordable homes and housing benefit (paid for by tax payers) makes them look good "helping the poor" but it all actually goes to rich landlords (their voter base) to pay off the mortgages on their multiple homes. So much money is wasted on housing benefit (something like 20 billion pounds per year) which could go towards building social housing that belongs to the nation.

We privately rented for years and with the high rent and my dh training could not afford to save a deposit. Then we had a child and my dh qualified and we decided to save for a deposit. Then I was diagnosed with a ongoing serious health condition and was off work for a year due to treatment and the deposit was used during this time. I never wanted social housing but was offered a house and it was perfect for my medical needs and so here we find ourselves both working and in social housing. Recently a person in a bought house in our street asked whether we could afford a certain toy for our daughter like we were peasants that wouldn't of been able to afford such luxuries. I find the attitude snobbish. I guess we never know where life will take us and no can predict health situations so it is best not to ask or judge why someone is in social housing.
In saying that I now have a neighbour with a massive PIP award who spends their time relaxing, drinking and smoking weed and has never and will never work and I can see why people get annoyed. The full family don't work. They annoy me when I still work with a serious condition and have to take immunosuppressive medication which also makes me ill. Like when on Friday when I could barely move and there she was playing badminton in her front garden whilst I struggled to finish a days work and no it's not a mental health condition she has but something that could be much improved by stopping using drugs and drink! So I totally get why people do think we are all wasters but I can tell you it's not always the full story!

The amount of single person households has risen by about 10%, form the 1970’s.that is a huge change. Link below to ONS and the direct quote. It’s a massive societal change.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/families/bulletins/familiesandhouseholds/2017

‘In 2017, around 28% of households contained one person (Figure 3). Although this has not changed much over the last decade, another source, the General Lifestyle Survey, which provides a longer time series, shows that 17% of households in Great Britain contained one person in 1971. Although not directly comparable, this suggests that the proportion of one-person households has increased considerably since the early 1970s’.

I think that the system here works fine. People who need social housing go on a priority list.
Others rent privately in an area that suits them at the time.
The ones who want to buy can save up to do so. In general most people aspire to be a home owner, to put the money they have earned in the type of property they want in the location you want and to make it their own with improvements, extensions and so on.
People like us can rent out our properties to the people in the second group and we get an income in retirement.

I don't agree this should be an aspiration. I think the norm should be people provide their own housing, and the state steps in when people aren't able. I also think home ownership should be encouraged / assisted with, because then people have a free place to live in retirement. However, right to buy should be stopped immediately.

I just looked up some figures - only 4.1 m homes are owned by local authority and housing associating in the UK. Our home ownership rates are actually very low comparable to other countries at 63% en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

Personally I agree with parts of @Countrygirl2021 post, as in suitability of social housing should be assessed every few years as it should be provided on an as needed basis given its a scarce resource. There should be more government guarantees to mortgage companies for people wanting to buy who have a track record of paying rent on time. Private renting should be overhauled somewhat. I think children and pets should have to be accepted by landlords (I know so many seem to prefer young professionals instead). There should be a cap on annual rent increases allowed. And the eviction process needs overhauling also. With it taking so long to evict, I think it puts a lot of landlords off renting to those who could be in receipt of housing benefit or on low incomes, in case they refuse to leave so as not to make themselves intentionally homeless for the council

@Zenithbear you think the housing model here is fine? I think you’ll find you’ll be in the minority with that view. As a landlord I suppose you won’t see any issue with private rent as it benefits you but there is a massive problem when families are expected/ can afford to pay sky high rents but can’t get a mortgage or social housing. We were very lucky, a family member helped us onto the ladder, with rent prices so high we couldn’t save a penny. We now pay hundreds a month less... we are so fortunate though, families on average incomes like us but with no help just can’t break out of the private rental rut. Plus all the first time buyer houses get snapped up by private landlords anyway! It’s criminal.

But when it comes to public housing we vilify it and criticise people who have public houses as ‘less’ than those who rent privately or own houses

Do you? I don't. You should stop doing that.

It's not your home, it's somewhere you are given to live to prevent you being on the street

Disgusting. WTF?

No one can say they wouldn't be a little bitter about spending that sort of money only for next door to have it for free.

I'm in the middle of buying a house knowing that most of the properties on the road are council houses. I don't particuarly care - in fact, I've even looked into the process of selling the house back to the council if in my later years I need to move into care or after I'm dead. Years back, I left a social housing flat because it wasn't meeting my spouse and my disability needs (a place being smaller doesn't automatically make it more accessible - the area I'm moving to has a higher rate of older and disabled people as the houses are easier to adapt) so I know these sorts of properties are important. That is difficult for many councils to get more suitable housing, so most aren't buying even ex-council properties at this time, is a major issue.

Having been in a rental where essential work including fixing boilers has taken several months to fix, where all the repairs were done by relatives or friends of the landlord at their ease, I've definitely had times where it'd be nice to throw money at the problem rather than having to deal with kettle baths.

I don't think we should aim for any particular number in council housing, but the idea that - whether council or private - that people are getting a great service with over £19k repairs "free" what little tenant protection there is and the difficulty in enforcing said legal protection - is having a laugh. That's not reality for most people renting.

Retired social housing worker here. Its been mentioned that lettings changed in the late 70s to mainly needs based. Before that, it was slum clearance, waiting time, or special circumstances like certain types of work. However, lettings could be very selective, councillors would interfere, and some estates were almost middle class in the mix of tenancies. Housing officers would visit applicants' homes (I've read some of the old files) and comment on standards of cleanliness; whether the father was in steady employment; how the children were clothed etc.

I worked on a beautiful estate, mainly semis, with a few detached house. They were nearly all owned privately by the 90s, what a bargain! The neediest applicants now have little choice. I'm pleased Scotland and Wales have withdrawn the Right to Buy. I can't see the point of building new social housing if its going to be flogged off at a discount so I hope England follows suit.

I would like to see more social housing, partly to improve the mix. Because of the focus on 'need' there are now highly concentrated areas of deprivation, crime, unemployment. Only the most desperate for housing will accept tenancies there, and the turnover can be high. Here in the north the high number of empties led to large scale demolition 20+ years ago. Some northern councils advertised family homes to families from London, and some did take up tenancies.

I understand why people who are struggling to pay private rents, or mortgages on small, poor quality housing can feel resentment towards those with secure, affordable tenancies and an option to buy. But there will always be winners and losers. Unfortunately the winners these days in the council housing stakes are often like Mousemay's neighbours. 😐

Judging by a good few responses on this thread the Tories smear campaign against social housing is firmly embedded.
Free housing paid for by benefits has got to be the laziest, most feeble stereotype.
Us and them for the poorest.

We all pay for the NHS, it’s a great system but it’s certainly not free :)

I grew up in a council house and I’m as left leaning as they come but I’ve never understood or gotten on board with the idea that the government should be responsible for housing all citizens. Of course there should be services for people at risk of becoming homeless, but I also don’t think the government should be responsible for providing cheap housing for everyone. I dunno, it just seems such an alien concept. Nobody I know lives in one, and I don’t think I know anyone who believes everyone should be able to get one.

Council housing imo is supposed to be there for people who are struggling and unable to afford to live in an appropriate property by themselves. And once you’re in a position to be able to house yourself you should do so and leave the property available for someone else who needs it like you did. It’s wrong imo to have two adults working full time who could afford normal housing remain in a council house for years on end. They should exist but he means tested so people who require them have the opportunity to get them.

I wish my council house was free 🙄,I think some posters think that those of us who live in social housing ,get everything for free ,we don't ,I had a new kitchen put in about a year ago ,they did a half arsed job which they didn't finish ,and it was very basic it certainly wasent an expensive fitted kitchen ,and then the Pandemic hit so my kitchen still isn't finished .

I don’t think you can compare the two.

Medical needs are met when necessary - I can’t just walk in and ask for a free boob job, or a face lift or any other procedure I fancy.

Some people have life long conditions that need a lot of ‘free’ medication - where as I pay for my prescriptions.

Housing on the other hand isn’t based on need, otherwise you wouldn’t have single people in 4 beds whilst families are cramped.

There’s an awful lack of social housing for people how really need it and councils paying our rent to slum landlords and bed and breakfasts - you wouldn’t accept this as medical care.

The only way for more affordable housing is to build more long term housing or have a system that moves people when their circumstances change and people accepting they need to move to suit.

^I’ve got a few friends who bought under right to buy and the first thing they all did was rip out the awful council kitchens and bathrooms!
So I’m not sure the idea of a lifetime of their awful awful ‘upgrade’ kitchens is any sort of dream for anyone!^

I can't afford to replace my crappy 30+ year old kitchen or 40+ year old bathroom and can't see a time when I will be able to. The crappy council ones would be an upgrade...

Not jealous though as it's swings and roundabouts. Never understood the vitriol aimed at people who need social housing but want something more than a hovel.

So I’d lose out? I have a three bedroom house with a garden that we worked hard for. Under your system as a couple without children we’d get stuck in a 1 bedroom flat somewhere? No thanks we did that and we worked our arses off to move up the housing ladder. I worked two jobs at one point.

IMO social housing should be available to those who need it, but I don’t think that will ever be 90%. Many people will always want to own their own home, if they can.

I don’t think social housing should be available to anyone on a relatively high income, who could easily afford to rent privately.

On threads like this it’s often said that renting is much more the norm in certain European countries, but I do think that’s changing. It certainly is in Sweden. A Swedish friend who recently moved back after 30 odd years away, bought her flat, when she’d always rented before. She didn’t even think of renting.

One of her sons and his family, recently moved into their 4th house, having done up and sold on the 3 previous.
And her other son, who recently moved back from SE Asia with wife and dc, has just put a deposit on a new build - he has no intention of renting long term.

Also in France, I mentioned to. French neighbour of a BiL, how often it’s said that the French are happy to rent, they don’t particularly want to buy.
‘But they do!’ she said, ‘They do!’ Mind you in that area, fairly rural Burgundy, property is relatively cheap compared to the U.K. I can’t say the same for food prices though!

@BashfulClam

So I’d lose out? I have a three bedroom house with a garden that we worked hard for. Under your system as a couple without children we’d get stuck in a 1 bedroom flat somewhere? No thanks we did that and we worked our arses off to move up the housing ladder. I worked two jobs at one point.

This was my thinking, if you work hard & save your money why shouldn’t you be able to choose nice accommodation? It would grate seeing people that don’t work and pop out kids moving into big houses while hard working couples are forced to live in tiny flats.