To ask for some eleven plus advice

[Nora1978]

Sorry not strictly aibu but didn’t get much response on the parenting section!

Dd goes to a lovely village primary but we live in an area with a dreadful local comp so I do feel a bit anxious about getting her into a decent secondary school and feel that she will need to have a go at the eleven plus in the hope that we will have more options.

There is a local girls grammar school that lots of her year four classmates want to go to and they’re getting extra tutoring. We haven’t done this with dd as it feels too early and with everything they’ve all gone through, we’ve made her mental health the highest priority. She is a very bright but sensitive child and hates extra work and I don’t want to put pressure on her so I’m looking for ways of getting her gently prepared from next September when she’s starting year five. I can’t afford tutoring but I just wondered if there are online apps or programs that are more like puzzles that might help prepare her for the eleven plus in a more gentle fun way?

I hate the thought of all this intense studying on top of school work but perhaps I’m being naive and it’s the only way to help her? I would really value some common sense advice from those that have been there as I’m surrounded by very competitive parents who make me feel I’m not doing enough! Thank you 😊

You should be able to find some nonverbal tests on line, if not WHSmiths sell study books
TBH if she hates pressure a grammar school may not be for her. They are focused on results not the whole child in my experience
Look at the other options, they maybe a better match for your child
Do not be swayed by other people's choices
An unhappy child will not flourish

I think you have to either:

1. Decide the extra work would be bad for her and so settle on the comp
2. Decide the extra work is worth it and do it because you can’t settle on the comp and need the grammar school place, stressful as it might be
3. Pay privately

A half hearted attempt at the grammar helps no one imo

WHS Smiths have some good resources for verbal and non verbal reasoning. My DD prepared for the 11+ as we live in a very competitive area for Grammar schools. I think your DD will need some preparation for exam technique as timings are tight on the actual test.

Year 5 is a nightmare for 11+ chatter from other parents I found it so draining. We found a lovely Year 6 teacher on maternity leave who came to us for 1 hour a week from Octoberin year 5. Very low key, competitions between themselves to spot NVR and my DD really enjoyed the boost to her confidence. If the tutor missed a week because her toddler was unwell it was no big deal but the important thing was keeping the tutoring relaxed and fun. You could do this yourself perhaps with a fun treat at the end. If I could do one thing is more full exams practice just for timings in the Summer holiday before the test. Good luck OP.

DS got into his (boys) grammar school with no tutoring having only decided to do the 11+ 3 months before 🙈. You will need to do some preparation and take it seriously as she will need to know how to do the tests and there are things that she won’t have been taught in Maths and obviously VR and NVR if they do that. Find out which style of tests they do at that particular school as they are different. Try to do an hour of work a couple of times a week, making sure you cover all topics and practice tests. Bond do 11+ prep books in ages 8-9, 9-10 and 10-11 so you could start with the 8-9 now.

Most importantly make sure there’s no pressure big up the local comp even if you think it’s shit. Reward her with a meal out or something after the test not after the result but plan something nice for results day (regardless of the outcome) to take her mind off it. Some of DS’s classmates that had been tutored for years didn’t get in and I think it’s the pressure that got to them!

I had tutoring for my 11 plus and honestly don’t think I would have passed without it. Part of it was the confidence I gained but also just the fact that you don’t get taught the correct skills to pass at school.

I think all this is ridiculous. I got into a grammar school from outside the catchment area (i.e. I had to score higher than those within it, and those with sisters at the school).

All my mum did was buy me a couple of practice test booklets (in Y6) so I could see what they were like (since they were not tasks children are used to doing, especially the non-verbal reasoning paper).

She didn't even expect me to complete them (though I did, since I found it fun). None of this tutoring rubbish or other preparation.

But I agree with previous posters that if she doesn't like pressure,
a grammar school will probably give her mental health issues (e.g. an eating disorder), judging by my cohort.

She is a very bright but sensitive child and hates extra work

Grammar school is competitive which means extra work. She will be constantly pushed in the grammar system to achieve.

If she hates extra work, how do you feel she will cope in the grammar system?

All that said, you can get books to help prep for the 11+ and I would start asap to get DD used to it. I would also see if you can have a frank and honest conversation with her teacher - do they think she has the aptitude for grammar?

I 100 per cent agree with what Gertrude Perkins says. There is no one right answer, but if you are going down the 11 plus route you have to be “all in”. Almost no child ever goes into the 11 plus without having put in a considerable amount of extra work. Sadly being bright is rarely sufficient, as it’s a time sensitive exam where technique matters as much as intelligence.

Have a look on elevenplusexams.co.uk forum where you can find specific advice for your area. It is worth considering the options GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing outlines. I would though suggest that if all her friends are having tutors she may be upset if she doesn't have any preparation. Also it is worth considering that extra work on Maths and English, especially after the disruption of the past year, is not effort wasted. Whichever school she goes to being good at those subjects and having confidence in her ability is not effort which is lost. Verbal reasoning is related to reading, again not a wasted skill. Non verbal is less easily justifiable but if she is bright she might enjoy them.

Google atom learning it’s an online platform for tutoring. Good luck OP!

I think Atom Learning.

Also it really depends upon the child's current school.

The state primary my child went too was really quite behind because of a really challenging class, so when I looked at 11 plus I realised a great of work had not been covered. A friend whose son went private always said she never had to do any prep, she paid the prep to do that.

I don't think it really is to do with a child being bright either, little and often can work wonders.

Decide OP how to handle it. I took the view that the extra knowledge would be helpful but I did not want my child to focus on results. It all worked out in the end.

I agree with a lot that has been said.
You need to have both DD and parents involved in this project. It does take lot of effort on part of DC and parent. It is sustained over a long period, and later on there will be wobbles along the way due to stress. Parents can help minimise stress by ensuring there is time to relax , and start gently. If Grammar is even a possibilty in your mind, you can start sooner rather than later. As you go thru the prep snd the pressure, you will have a better idea if the selective school is the right place for your DD. Happy children will flourish anywhere but unhappy ones will be even more stressed if they can’t cope with the pace in selective school.
You need to be focused over a long period for a selective school place. But equally I agree that you should not make it the be all and end all. The prep will be useful in later years , even if DD went to your local school. If other friends are having extra help , your DD will want to keep up with them, or she will resent it. Even if you don’t have a tutor , you can do extra work with her. Little and often is absolutely key to avoiding pressure.
You can use Bond books and Bond online. The online version gives results so you can pick out weak areas. You can ramp it up later with Bofa. VR/ NVR do need practice , and they do get better as the do more if it.
If you start soon, and increase work gradually she has better chance if coping rather than intense work later. Tou can do past papers from different schools starting late summer / autumn as the exams are time limited. So once the knowledge base is sound, you can focus on exam technique.
If you decide later to go for a place at a competitive school, and can afford it , I think a tutor can help in last few weeks to really give that boost , and target work on weak areas .
It is also useful for her to know more about the world around us. Read a lot, which helps with English work. Awareness and understanding of news, some politics , hobbies, and practice discussing these as family will help boost confidence if she goes to interviews. The school report will also reflect her achievements snd progress which is important ( at least in Independent school, our route, can’t comment on Grammars.
Having gone thru it this year, I wish you all the best , whatever you decide.

I was tutored for my 11 plus and wouldnt have passed without it, my brain didnt work the way it needed for the tests naturally so it was like brain training for me. Best of luck with it, I would say you need to be supportive but keep it fairly low pressure.

@tabernacles

I think all this is ridiculous. I got into a grammar school from outside the catchment area (i.e. I had to score higher than those within it, and those with sisters at the school).

All my mum did was buy me a couple of practice test booklets (in Y6) so I could see what they were like (since they were not tasks children are used to doing, especially the non-verbal reasoning paper).

She didn't even expect me to complete them (though I did, since I found it fun). None of this tutoring rubbish or other preparation.

But I agree with previous posters that if she doesn't like pressure,
a grammar school will probably give her mental health issues (e.g. an eating disorder), judging by my cohort.

You’ve kind of touched on my worries. I feel exhausted just hearing about all the work involved in preparing them for the 11 plus and then I worry that a grammar school wouldn’t be the right place for her anyway.

We got our dc tutored in Year 5 because he was struggling to achieve in tests. He's bright but panics easily and buckles completely under pressure. We sought tutors who specialise in restoring/instilling confidence in children particularly with ASD (which he has). They did a marvellous job with my child but were keen to stress that the 11+ is now a LOT harder than it used to be*, just as the curriculum is a lot more intense. Children now are expected to learn work for GCSE that was previously only covered in A levels. People who passed the 11+ yonks ago had a totally different experience with a significantly easier exam!

In the end we sent our dc to a comprehensive with a caring and nurturing ethos, rather than the grammar schools that are relentless with pressure on the children to learn more and more and get great marks that reflect well on the school. Fair enough, they have to maintain their reputations for turning out high achievers. But we felt our child wouldn't cope with that - and with the volume of homework set - and I don't think yours would either, to be honest, from what you say.

I'd look into other options if I were you.

(*Our HT said this as well, the school had a good idea who would be able to pass and who wouldn't, might be worth asking for their considered opinion?)

Is the local comp appalling or just the brightest skimmed off by the grammars?

I am sorry but if she hates extra work and is sensitive she is not suitable for a grammar school. I have twins who both passed their 11 plus and went to different grammars. going to grammar damaged my sensitive daughter so much we pulled her out and two years later we are still struggling to get her confidence back. Grammars are competitive and the children are expected to study a lot outside of school.

Remember too that many comprehensives also set/ stream. If she is bright she might do well in a top set. It will help though if she has a solid grounding in maths and English at the start, so extra work at home now won't go to waste. Sometimes it can be hard to move between streams so if she starts a comp and is assessed in a lower stream she might find it hard to move up if they are ahead. There will be children going to the comp who tried and narrowly missed out on the grammar who have covered the curriculum in more detail with tutor who perform better on initial screening. There is also slightly more pressure to stay in sets within a comp, whereas in a grammar once you are in, you are in, at least until 6th form unless you perform really badly. If she passes from an average state school there will almost certainly be students there who are not as able who have been in small classes and had tutors who will struggle more.

Having said that the competition can be strong in a grammar if she tends to compare herself a lot to others. It can also be easy to lose perspective of your ability, if everyone around you is getting 9s and you are getting 8s it can feel miserable whereas in a comp although there may be some getting 9s, you also see those getting 2 and 3.

I am not sure that Grammars do expect more work outside of school. In my experience it seems fairly similar homework for those children aiming for similar grades. They sit the same GCSEs so a similar level of work will be needed to achieve a 7 in each school, it may just be the expectations to receive a 7 and the value placed on achieving a 7 differs between the schools.

Bear in mind that she will change considerably over the next few years so I would keep options open, do some work at home and decide nearer the time.

Don't tutor your poor child. If they get in, they're suited if not, they're not suited for grammar.

I would make sure her English and Maths are at exceeding expectations levels - something like the doodlemaths app plus encouraging lots of reading should do it. Then think about VR/NVR books and / or a tutor in Y5, and see how she goes. Mock tests are also useful. Also worth asking her teacher whether they think she’d be a good fit for the grammar.

Gosh, this thread makes me so sad, and so relieved we don’t live in a grammar school area. The pressure on children and parents sounds horrendous. It just seems so wrong that it’s accepted that there has to be external tutoring to pass something that surely was supposed to make these school available to the less advantaged bright children just as much as those who can afford private tutoring.

No advice, OP, just best wishes for you and your daughter.

chazp it is an unfair system. Plenty of people who go to private schools still pay for private additional tuition on top of their private school fees. Most state schools can not cover the work in class that is required for the 11 plus.

You can ofcourse tutor from home if you have the time.

It is all quite terrible in some ways but I can see why there is competition.

I was amazed at the many thousands of children who sit 11 plus grammar exams. Ofcourse some private students do use the 11 plus grammar tests as purely a practice run for their private school 11 plus exams and so that does up the numbers, when they sometimes never have any intention of taking up a state grammar place.

Do you live in SP? If so PM me. I can give you some more specific advice.

Agree a halfhearted effort helps no one and is potentially very upsetting. I wouldn’t sit an exam without adequate prop to expect a 10 year old to do that is downright cruel.
Do you and DD like the school and feel it would be a good fit? If she doesn’t like work or pressure it probably won’t suit.
If you feel it’s an option look on school website and admissions criteria. There are differences. Grammar my DC is at isn’t super selective. A pass in catchment gets you a place - less pass than places. Tutoring (either paid or bond books) in catchment from yr 5 is the norm simply to ensure child is familiar with vr and to cover yr 6 maths (they are tested on full yr 6 maths curriculum 2 weeks into yr 6) Out of catchment places go on score order so children start tutoring younger.
It’s rubbish to say if they need tutoring they will struggle at grammar. Every child there will have been tutored - either paid or the oh we just used to bond books - the child had a parent who knew which books to get and could spend time and had ability to do them with them.
The 11 plus forum is very informative.

Reading is an excellent way to prep
in a non pressured way and obviously beneficial no matter if decide to sit test or not. You’ll find suggested 11 plus reading lists online. Maybe read some of the classics together at bedtime. They need the vocab I can remember I was surprised at some of the words they needed to know.