Disgusted By Dentists Behaviour!!!

[Windchangeface]

We moved home week before the pandemic and then non of the dentists were taking on patients.

This made me very nervous, I kept an eye out to jump as soon as they opened up.

Well...as of a few weeks ago 3/5 practises within a 15 mile radius of us put up notices on their websites ‘taking on new patients’ great I rang to register me, DH and small DS. But oh no, they aren’t taking on any NHS patients only private or Denplan! (Would cost us a minimum of £50 per month and I’m currently pregnant so should be free anyway). The receptionists at all 3 massively tried to sell me Denplan and actually made me feel like a total sponge for asking about NHS.

‘Most families prefer Denplan’ erm sorry Shannon but I highly doubt ‘most’ families prefer to spend £50+ per month on something that should be £20 a visit for them and free for their kids!

One of the receptionists even told me (in a very snooty tone) ‘no we aren’t taking NHS patients we’ve got enough of those) another stated ‘we’ve met our quota for NHS so are only taking paying patients’.

Given DH is a Dr who spends all day looking after hospital patients free of charge I’m at a loss to understand why dentists feel they’re above the NHS.

Horrible, elitist attitude excluding people who can’t afford to pay from adequate healthcare and forcing those who can to pay high premiums they shouldn’t have to!

@Aprilx

I haven’t seen a dentist taking on NHS patients for 25 years. Also as a professional person, I accept that I need to pay for dental care and I am happy to leave the very limited NHS slots for children and those that cannot afford to pay, not for doctors’ wives.

As a professional person do you also have health insurance, so that you can leave the very limited gp slots, surgery slots, a&e slots to children and those who cannot afford to pay?

Tbh, private dental care is hugely expensive. Paying £60 for a check up with additional charges for cleaning, might not seem a lot to some on here, but when this is per family, it’s a lot of money. Throw fillings or crowns in the mix, and it’s very expensive. There appears to be a view that if you’re working and not on benefits, that you should pay private and leave nhs treatment for those on benefits. But why? I work, and don’t class myself as well off financially, and am not on benefits. I would find it difficult to pay privately, especially if I needed treatment.

I am surprised you had a quote for £50 for Denplan. The people I know who use it are much older than you and therefore they will in theory need more work doing, and they pay around £25 a month.

The £50 is presumably for you and your husband?

You don't need to use Denplan.

Why don't you work it on the basis of one annual check up (costs vary) and any work you ever need doing will be paid for as you go?
ie 2 hygienist appts annually.

That's what we do and over the year it's not a huge amount of money.

The upside of private dental care is they can use better materials if you need work doing (fillings, crowns, etc) using options the NHS doesn't have.

Dental care is important so your choice is to find an NHS dentist or work the cost of private into your annual outgoings, like house and car insurance, using a scheme, or pay as you go.

No one is saying it is a good state of affairs but blaming the dentists themselves is wrong.
Take it up with the government. Ideally the 2006 Labour government who brought in the UDA contract.

This is not dentists fault. This is about the way government chose to structure and pay for nhs dentistry.

I’m sure you’d be the first to be cross if your husband was blamed for lack of nhs medical care so why are you blaming dentists and their receptionists in quite an unkind way?

If the dentist being closed made you 'anxious and jumpy', you need to calm down.

NHS doctor foundation year salaries range from nearly £39k to nearly £50k. For anyone any was interested.

This is wrong. The salary for a first year foundation doctor is £28k.
The salary for a second year foundation doctor is £32.5k. There’s a some extra paid (not a massive %) for rotas with weekend and night work.
www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england

Can't afford to get your teeth looked at but can afford three kids 🤦

People like you stop people who really need the service from being able to access it. Your husband won't be on junior wages forever. Will you still expect free dental when he earns £60k+.

Go out like the rest of us have to and get an evening job to help, hubby can babysit while you work.

Sorry no sympathy for you at all.

I hear you OP, although I don’t blame the system not individual dentists.

I think there is an element of privatisation by stealth.

Someone upthread said how would you feel if you needed an operation and the surgeon said ‘sorry, I’ve filled my NHS quota’. In our experience that’s exactly what is happening. DH’s uncle had to pay for his knee replacements. Couldn’t work without them, couldn’t afford not to work and couldn’t wait the 3+ years it would take to have them both replaced on the NHS. I had to go private for my migraines, again I couldn’t afford the lost working time to wait for an NHS neurology appointment. DH needed an actual lifesaving operation some years ago but was going to have to wait months until he was very ill indeed before he could get his. Fortunately(!) his condition dramatically worsened and he was operated on as an emergency.

Perhaps a free at the point of need health system is no longer viable, if so I’d rather we as a county were honest about it so people could prepare themselves by being fully insured.

Given DH is a Dr who spends all day looking after hospital patients free of charge

@Windchangeface He doesn't get paid, then? I assume he gets paid for his time.

I went to my NHS funded dentist a few days ago. Was one minute in the dentist chair for a check up and it cost me £25. I agree there should be more NHS dentists as my son is having trouble seeing an affordable dentist so he has been left with the need of a filling as he cant afford to go private. I hear you OP.

*I blame the system not individual dentists

Don’t know where the not came from!

Your headline is a bit dramatic but I agree with you OP.

There should be sufficient NHS dentist services for all to access, it’s very short sighted not to.

I’m happy to pay enough tax to properly fund a health service (which includes dentistry) for all, it shouldn’t be a lottery who gets nhs dentistry and who doesn’t.

If more people who could uptake things like denplan- it would give increased resources to those who genuinely can't afford it. I don't understand the continued assumption in the UK that the system can continue as it is, and why should I pay for dental care. Because you can. To be able to have a service for those who genuinely can't.

@ExcitingTimes2021

Im sorry OP but NHS dentistry in England’s contract was changed a number of years ago to the banding/UDA system where NHS dentists have to apply for a UDA contract. No dentists I believe where happy with this change from the fee per item system (which still exists in Scotland). It is not funded like the GP services who get a set amount paid per year per patient on the books, no matter how many times each patient accesses the service. NHS dentists get paid a set amount per UDA, and treatments can range from 1 UDA to 12 UDS, and once the limit of their contract is reached they receive no more payments for any further work done. So basically if they where to continue to treat NHS patients then they would not only be working for free but also be out of pocket as they would still need to pay the assistants wage, materials used, lab fees etc.

If in your local area all the dental practices have enough patients to meet that contract each year then it is unreasonable to expect them to take on any more have have to work for free.

The other side of the coin it that if a dental practice doesn’t have enough NHS patients and doesn’t fulfill its UDA contract then they are fined.

I do not agree with what has happened to NHS dentistry over the years. However we do need to understand why there is limited resources available for NHS dentistry and why so many people struggle to get a place with an NHS dentist. For the most part it is not that dentists with an NHS contract do not want to treat NHS patients, rather their funding has been cut to the point where there isn’t enough funding to treat the whole population. I will also point out that new NHS contracts are few and far between so new dentists opening have no choice but to only offer treatment on a private basis as they cannot secure an NHS contract.

You're right. The UDA system is crazy. 1 UDA for a check up and 3 for treatment. The whole 3 UDA's could be for 5 fillings, 2 extractions, 2 RCT's and it's still only 3 for many hours work. Not to mention if they come back with problems within x amount of months we then have to re open that course of treatment and work on the same 3 UDA's. Some of the UDA targets are ridiculous and very very draining.

I did ask about a waiting list and they just tried to sell me how quickly they could see patients on den plan. No direct answer and certainly no offer to add us to the waiting list.

I did ask if DH and I went on Den plan if kids could be NHS and no ‘but kids are reduced prices on denplan’ not what I asked but ok (still cost roughly £10-£15 each per month).

I can probably work our budget to accommodate paying £50-£75 a month on dental care but we will really feel it and it irritates me that a service we are told should be free as we are already paying for via taxes isnt! It’s not like we use dental services regularly so certainly aren’t a drain on the system but a yearly check up and the safety net of having a dentist should something go wrong is essential for everyone.

We are lucky enough not to be on minimum wage but there is a difference between minimum wage and ‘average’ U.K. family income. Min wage is poverty for families but families earning £20-£50k especially in pricey areas are not ‘ungrateful and should be paying for dental care privately to free up provision for those more needy’

If the nhs can not fund dental care then surely it should just pull the whole system and change it to those on no income and kids free, everyone else paying a low and reasonable rate.

Nhs dentist here.

The government hasn't commissioned enough dentistry for the whole population unfortunately. My estimates are about 50-60 %.

I haven't seen my own patients for check ups yet. I'm a year behind. It's a shambles.

@CupboardofJoy it is illegal for a dental technician to see patients direct to make new dentures, although they can do repairs.

Totally with you on this one OP. I have an excellent NHS dentist but he’s so busy I can never ever get an appointment so often have to pay for private treatment instead. It’s not a fair system at all.

I’m also shocked that you believe people tarnish doctors as not earning as much as you think, but believe dentists earn more.

I’m an nhs dentist (solely nhs) and earn £35,000 a year. That’s for working 8-7pm. I also have lab bills to pay from that, have the joys of being self employed with no real benefits of employment. My wage has dropped on a yearly basis since 2006 and the new contract came in, as labs increase their bills yearly (as they should) but the price I get paid per unit of dental activity has stayed the same. Practices are sinking as the money they are paid isn’t enough to support the costs.

I’m in the north and around here we have endless dentists taking on new patients. I chose to stay nhs and accept the lesser pay but I can understand why colleagues wouldn’t be happy considering the £80,000 debt we get into just to qualify and the £800 gdc fees we pay a year as well as the £400 a month indemnity we need to pay in order to practice.

Unfortunately as costs of living are higher in the south most dentists choose to stay north. There are some who own practices of course or work in central London who can earn large amounts (in a similar way a doctor can) but for the most part we need to stay north to keep costs down.

You should have told Shannon your DH was a Doctor, I’m sure she would have registered you as an NHS patient (while clapping)

OP I completely agree. I’m older than you and comfortably off so can afford to pay for care, but that doesn’t stop me having empathy for those who don’t. I agree that it should be available for everyone. Sadly that’s an ideal world, and it’s one we don’t live in.

And to those being snarky about OP’s DH being a rich doctor - OP’s DH probably has a massive student loan.

Ever since Covid hit and dentists stopped seeing all patients initially and then most only saw emergencies and private patients, I've been fully expecting a new exodus of dentists from providing any NHS treatment let alone take on new patients. We've been at the same surgery for years although it changed hands about 10 years ago. Originally we were registered as NHS patients, then in the last fallout dentists had with the Government our dentist went private although she would see DCs of private patients in the NHS. The she sold out and the new dentist did a mixture of both. DH asked to go back to NHS and after 12 months on the waiting list we got NHS spaces. None of us have heard from the dentist since they rang to cancel our appointments nearly 12 months ago. I would not be at all surprised to hear they will no longer be seeing NHS patients in order to make up for the losses they have endured over the last 12 months. We have been there before - this is not just a Covid problem, it's a Government problem.

It's hard for dentists just now as I think the nhs only allows them enough PPE to see around ten patients a day, whereas private dentists have generally purchased their own PPE and can see as many patients as they can!

No wonder there are no places for people who genuinely need to access dental care on the NHS because they are very low income/unemployed when doctors wives are trying to get appointments for themselves, husband and three children.

Just pay up OP, like everyone else who can afford it does.