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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that it's unacceptable for men to use the "b" word

53 replies

Lessthanaballpark · 11/03/2021 18:54

There's a guy in our group of friends who uses this a lot, specifically aimed at one younger woman (who I'm convinced he likes but that's beside the point)

The young woman in question is very witty with her words and gives as good as she gets (without the need for excessive name-calling) but I know that she sometimes gets tired of it and would rather he didn't. She says nothing because she doesn't want to appear too sensitive.

He did it again today (she wasn't there - he referred to her as "a dumb bitch". I told him I didn't like it. He said "You know I'm just joking right?". I said you would not jokingly use the N word to person of colour so why do you think it's ok to jokingly level the B word to a woman.

He was shocked and told me that I was being absurd, that the B word wasn't nearly as bad because Black people were enslaved and oppressed for 400 years.

I said it doesn't need to be AS bad for it to be unacceptable and that the principle was the same.

We had a back and forth, quite amicable, I told him he was being illogical. He said we'd have to agree to disagree and we left it at that.

However... he continued to use it.

I can't imagine continuing to use a word that I knew was offensive to someone of the target group. I would never purposefully misgender someone for example.

But he was so incredulous that I was equating the two that I'm doubting myself now.

Anyway:

YANBU: he's a twat and shouldn't use it
YABU: you're being too sensitive. it's just banter.

OP posts:
lottiegarbanzo · 11/03/2021 19:46

He doesn't recognise that women have been oppressed by men for more than 400 years??

lottiegarbanzo · 11/03/2021 19:48

What would his equivalent phrase for a stupid young man be? 'Oh he's such a... ' A what?

SchrodingersImmigrant · 11/03/2021 19:49

Yanbu about him being a twat and using it absolutely unnecessarily and so on.

Yabu about man not being able to use that word.

Throckmorton · 11/03/2021 19:54

@lottiegarbanzo

He doesn't recognise that women have been oppressed by men for more than 400 years??
This!!
Original poster
Lessthanaballpark · 11/03/2021 19:54

I’d like to know when it started being shocking. It came as a shock to me when I discovered people found it unacceptable

I remember hearing it in rap songs the 90s and being shocked because at that point it had always been used to put down women. But then it kind of got appropriated and used in a positive way. FRIENDS also used it a fair bit, in both derogatory, neutral and positive ways.

I mean I get that he doesn't necessarily mean it in a serious way but he does target it specifically at her. They also tease her about being fat, because she teases herself.

And sometimes she's ok but sometimes she gets upset privately and I just want to knock it on the head because she is a complete sweetheart. But I can't act for her I know!

OP posts:
Mittens030869 · 11/03/2021 20:00

YANBU, OP. The B word is deeply misogynistic and, regardless of whether it’s as bad as the N word isn’t the point. You called him out on it and he took no notice, despite you telling him that he was out of order.

Calling a woman a ‘dumb B’ is very offensive IMO.

Silenceisgolden20 · 11/03/2021 20:11

You called him out on it and instead of apologising he carrys on. That's not ok. Who does he think he is?

I don't like the word, even used by women to other women and I think you were right to say something. The fact he's saying it to a younger woman as well is telling.
Banter is a crap excuse to put her down. He sounds insecure and probably wants to sleep with her.

It's not a agree to disagree moment when he's been told not to do it. You can't agree to disagree about treating women like that, you just don't do it.

SmokedDuck · 11/03/2021 20:17

I think it's inappropriate, but, I will say that these kinds of language things can vary hugely by region, and also by other things like social class or other demographic grouping. I've seen young guys from some backgrounds where it is used pretty casually, and they don't really see it as a serious slur.

I still think it's inappropriate, but if he's not very attuned to things or doesn't have a lot of life experience, he might honestly think it's used everywhere quite casually - if he really seemed surprised to you, that's how I would interpret the situation.

In that case I'd probably tell him that for a lot of people (including maybe the woman in question) it's one of the more really offensive things that can be directed to a woman and shouldn't be used used lightly if at all - they may not take it at all in the spirit he intends.

Original poster
Lessthanaballpark · 11/03/2021 20:34

I think it's inappropriate, but, I will say that these kinds of language things can vary hugely by region, and also by other things like social class or other demographic grouping. I've seen young guys from some backgrounds where it is used pretty casually, and they don't really see it as a serious slur.

I agree. He doesn't think he's being offensive. He just thinks he's being funny.

But I guess if he thinks it's not offensive and I think it is, whose opinion prevails? I don't think she's offended by the occasional word as such, but rather the constant barage of the jokey insults.

And yes to PP, I'm pretty sure he wants to sleep with her. But she's going out with one of the group.

OP posts:
Silenceisgolden20 · 11/03/2021 21:11

But you've told him it is so why are you listening to his opinion?

Silenceisgolden20 · 11/03/2021 21:13

He's negging. He's an idiot . Tell him that so he can grow up

Original poster
Lessthanaballpark · 11/03/2021 21:23

He's negging

You're probably right. And it's working, because she isn't very confident. I do feel like it's gotten worse in the group since she said no to one of them (they all like her I'm sure) but yes to another. There's that subtle negging that happens when men are rejected.

Or not so subtle in this case.

OP posts:
FireflyRainbow · 11/03/2021 22:06

Yabu. It's horrible he says that and he shouldn't but I call my annoying bf a dick occasionally. It's not even on the same level as the N word. No comparison.

Original poster
Lessthanaballpark · 12/03/2021 06:46

Yabu. It's horrible he says that and he shouldn't but I call my annoying bf a dick occasionally. It's not even on the same level as the N word. No comparison.

So YANBU then because my AIBU wasn’t “is it as bad as the N word?” but “is it acceptable?”

Also, I totally get that you don’t think it’s on a level with the N word but no one has yet to articulate why.

What are the criteria that apply to the unsuitability of the N word that don’t apply to the B word?

OP posts:
Shoxfordian · 12/03/2021 06:55

I will give it a go

The n word represents a time when black people were literally enslaved by white people and forced to work, subject to systematic abuses and treated as second class citizens.

Admittedly women as a whole have also been treated and are still treated worse than men. I don’t think the b word has been used to widely describe all women in the same way the n word was used to describe all black people. I also don’t think you can meaningfully compare slavery to sexism and try to decide which is worse.

Your male friend doesn’t sound a very thoughtful or kind person though so maybe you should distance yourself a bit from the group and make it clear to your other friend that you support her

Shoxfordian · 12/03/2021 06:56

I also note your comment around men not using the b word, but really it’s not a nice word to use about another woman either. I wouldn’t call a woman a b lightly.

Alsohuman · 12/03/2021 07:46

Can we stop with this “b word” stuff? On a site liberally littered with the word “cunt”, let’s name it - the word is bitch.

Original poster
Lessthanaballpark · 12/03/2021 07:52

Admiitedly women as a whole have also been treated and are still treated worse than men. I don’t think the b word has been used to widely describe all women in the same way the n word was used to describe all black people. I also don’t think you can meaningfully compare slavery to sexism and try to decide which is worse.

Thank you so much for engaging! I really appreciate it. Ok I will try to respond:

  • Bitch has been used as a derogatory term for women since the 15th century. It has ebbed and flowed in its popularity but it has always resurfaced as a real way to put women down. It is used seriously by incels and others who seek to harm women but, like the N word, has enjoyed a certain reappropriation amongst women.
  • For centuries women have suffered all kinds of persecution, from the actual real witch-hunts, systemised state rape in war to a lack of voting rights, a denial of access to education, to today’s continuation of domestic violence, rape and femicide. You need to look no further than this week’s newspapers for proof of that and to see that women do not enjoy the same freedom as men.
  • to put all that on the same level as what black people have suffered at the hands of white people may still be problematic for you and I would probably agree. The horrors and legacy of slavery are.. well I can’t articulate it.

But it doesn’t have to be AS bad for it for it to still be unacceptable. And it suffers from the same principle: an out group using a derogatory slur towards a group that has suffered historical oppression at the hands of that out group.

The only reason, in my opinion, that the B word feels less offensive is because it has been more normalised. And that, if you think about, is part of the problem.

OP posts:
PicsInRed · 12/03/2021 07:52

"Bitch" is often what is uttered as women are raped, assaulted and murdered, or in threat of doing so, that's why it is absoutely not acceptable for a man to say it to a woman.

Oh, these poor fragile white men, just who can they abuse now? Why are we taking all their violent, threatening words from them? 😥

joystir59 · 12/03/2021 07:54

I'd hate it too OP. I think it's disrespectful and offensive. It's the noun for a female dog.

Emeraldshamrock · 12/03/2021 07:55

He is ignorant he hasn't the excuse of not being aware, he has been told he continues to say it.
It isn't about age OP it is a horrible word used for keeping women in their place.
Eye-roll and tut loudly next time.

lottiegarbanzo · 12/03/2021 08:01

A misogynist joke:

Q: What's the difference between a bitch and a ho (whore)?
A: A ho has sex with everyone, a bitch sleeps with everyone except you.

Sums up this man's feelings, I'd suggest.

Original poster
Lessthanaballpark · 12/03/2021 08:03

"Bitch" is often what is uttered as women are raped, assaulted and murdered

Thank you, yes. I should imagine that the last words poor Sarah Everard heard were the hateful insults of a man who despised her for simply being a woman.

OP posts:
Original poster
Lessthanaballpark · 12/03/2021 08:06

Q: What's the difference between a bitch and a ho (whore)?
A: A ho has sex with everyone, a bitch sleeps with everyone except you.

Oh my god I love this! 👏

OP posts:
Shoxfordian · 12/03/2021 08:23

Thanks for replying
I do tend to agree with you op

I don’t think the fact that maybe it isn’t as bad as saying the n word means it’s totally fine. It’s clearly an example of misogyny