To think that if the only black adult in your family says they have experienced racism...

[Overcastcloudy]

... it's counterproductive to send a white man out to say, We're very much not racist?

That just is never going to end well. Ask Ian Murray how it worked out for him.

I couldn't care much either way about the Royal Family. Just baffled at the headline of William saying this.

Oh gosh, @DuchessHastings I’m so sorry to hear that. That’s traumatic 💐

We don’t know for sure, but I can tell you this

When I was working on my genealogy, I can across a distance ancestor who is labeled as biracial (they had a different term but I am going to stick with biracial) as I was researching more into him, I found out he came from an enslaved family. Plus some of My DNA have some African dna (just don’t know which country) older people from the same line have more percentages. Anyway, I pointed this out to my family and they had a very difficult time accepting an ancestor who were enslaved. So they blocked me and I haven’t spoken to them since. I once wondered if they would have been more accepting if this ancestor was never enslaved. But no, I doubt it. Now I am wondering the same about the royal family. They have always been classism (so?) but this just my questioning off of my head based on my experience as I don’t know them at all.

People go on about Meghan, but one would at be slow if one were William and didn't know he was - obviously - going to be asked about this. Right?

Wrong. When they do engagements they usually do several in a day and to a very tight schedule. They have to be prepared for the engagement to show an interest in who they are meeting and what they are being shown. They do not have to prepare questions fired at them by the press as normally there won't be any. The press usually confines iteslf to a report of the visit with a picture for the local paper.

Although pretty sure someone will say like Meghan I'm lying.

Hell no. (Well some people on the thread might) not me.

I grew up in London in the 80s and it was incredibly racist time. I'm white so I didn't suffer personally, but I saw a lot of it.

It's much easier to collectively kick a woman in the head, who reflects aspects of society that people do not want to face, than take ownership and actually try to change.

@Blueberries0112 that is so disgusting, you’re better of without them. Truth is, an awful lot of us humans have mixed genealogy but just don’t realise it. You would think it would broaden people’s minds but in your case sadly not.

And on official engagements, usually the royal will address the press or at least take questions from the press.

No they don't. The press are there to observe the royal interacting with the people who the engagement was arranged for.

I'm really sorry for your experience @DuchessHastings

Skinheads were terrifying. The combination of aggression, racism, bovver boots & no hair - which always made them look like they were about to head butt someone.

@DuchessHastings

I believe you. 100%. People like you and I have experienced the real and raw type of racism that I doubt Meghan has ever experienced at the hands of the RF.

I find it chilling to think that someone could be tried and found guilty (if only in the court of public opinion) purely on one persons say so or their perception of something

I agree, not least because of the potential for abuse, which is why I find the key point is often to listen - not to shut down, but to listen and ask questions where appropriate in order to learn

That said, doing this doesn't guarantee someone will agree, and IME that's where things can get sticky ...

@itispersonal

Yes she can perceive it as racism, but that doesn't it was, or intended to be. I can take a lot of things the wrong way, think things are said one when actually it means another. It doesn't automatically mean x was being a racist.

Maybe people were mean to her, because they didn't like her, thought she was above her station, she would have been used to a pecking order in Hollywood, certain actors getting x treatment and her having less. Were they racists too? Also if it is a firm, Would you expect a new employer to be treated the same as the CEO.

Those who are bringing up Prince Philip and Prince Michael of Kent, these are 99yo and again very old. There is a generational thing, my own 70year old parents included, where they do and say racist, homophobic things, they don't always mean it as such. Yes you can explain why you can't say x and y but them saying them doesn't automatically mean they are racist!

@itispersonal just because your parents say racist things doesn't make it acceptable. My mum and the others from the windrush generation have been here since the 50's and 60's long enough to prop up the NHS and have British children, Grandchildren and even Great Great children if your parents are still making those comments they are racist and or wilfully ignorant. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Sir Captain Moore was 100 and was a perfect example of how you can learn new things at any age.

The experiences some people have had are apalling and hard to even wrap ones head around. But I cant help but keep coming back to the idea of a spectrum of bad behaviour. I know already people will say it's not ok to be a little bit racist and no one is saying it is but I do think that we can distinguish between severity of intention/action and respond accordingly. I know Matt Damon got into serious trouble for saying similar about the Me Too movement and there being a spectrum of poor behaviour and that patting someone on the butt is not the same as rape or child molestation. But while they may come from a similar place - power differentials, sexism, mens sense of entitlement etc - you can work with someone on one end of the spectrum in terms of changing culture, expectations, calling it out etc. I just don't think my boss who can be a bit overfamilar or cack-handed or says the wrong thing occasionally is as 'bad' as a serial sexual predator, he just isn't. Similarly with this issue of what M and H are talking about, it COULD be something as relatively innocuous, if ill judged as saying 'I wonder will the baby have it's mums lovely darker skin' or be pale and freckly like Harry' or it could be something much worse of course. Its problematic that we dont know but in the absence of that knowledge, I think it unfair to asume the worst or to just accuse the whole lot of them of being racist at this point in time. I think the other point that is often missed is that we evolve in our thinking, we learn hopefully as we go on, look back with embarrassment at things we thought or said at a certain time. That process at a societal level is obviously at a slower pace than anyone would like but I don't think the solution to that is to call anyone and everyone racist in an undifferentiated way or to not allow basic principles of fairness, right of reply or due process. That seems to me more akin to a witch hunt and likely to turn people against one another rather than to bring about lasting social and cultural change which will benefit everybody

@Topmum66 Then why don't you believe Meghan 100%? It's because you are prejudiced against Meghan and don't want to believe her so make up your mind that she has to be lying. It says a lot about you that you don't believe her.

@theleafandnotthetree I think Harry knows the context it was brought up in, and he definitely would not be saying this if it was as harmless as you suggested it could be.

Will people please stop trying to invalidate a person's experience of racism by suggesting 'oh maybe it wasn't meant like that'.

It clearly was.

Or it wouldn't even be an issue with Harry.

@CecilyP

And on official engagements, usually the royal will address the press or at least take questions from the press.

No they don't. The press are there to observe the royal interacting with the people who the engagement was arranged for.

The press should not only observe but also question. I presume as independent to the Rf, they can ask whatever questions they want

@theleafandnotthetree Posted too soon, I was going to reply at the end to this: "you can work with someone on one end of the spectrum in terms of changing culture, expectations, calling it out etc."

People like myself are TRYING to do that on here. On this very thread even. And we are met with resistance and denial. People simply refuse to acknowledge they are wrong and/or change. Once someone is prejudiced (and I don't mean that in a racist way) against someone they have it in their minds that they hate because they have misunderstood the person and have taken against them, it's very hard for that person to see reason.

I don't know exactly what the answer is, but some people are so racist, and others so prejudiced, that they point blank don't want to listen to reason. They want to cling onto their beliefs, out of sheer stubbornness, if nothing else. So, I guess my question is, how do you work with people who are so blinkered and closed-minded they have made up their minds to hate someone and won't listen to reason?

So anything any black or mixed race person says is to be believed automatically, without any scrutiny or judgement as to whether there is validity to the claim, without any thought to whether they might have reasons to make something up, without any knowledge of their character otherwise. I find that bizzare and against all principles of natural justice and actually quite condescending towards POC who are as likely and indeed as entitled to be of poor character or to get things wrong as anyone else.

Also @Topmum66 is entitled to just plain old dislike MM or find her untrustworthy in ways that have nothing to do with race. I really dislike one of my co-workers who is Chinese, does that make me prejuduced against Chinese people or just against people who I find really fucking annoying?

The interview was an attention seeking mistake. Harry dressed up as a fucking Nazi for shits and giggles. People in glass houses.

@theleafandnotthetree I truly find it bizarre that you think a POC should NOT automatically be believed if they say they have experienced racism.

I am absolutely stunned.

Why would you not automatically believe them? Do you normally go through life disbelieving a person telling you their experiences and demand proof before you believe them?

Seriously, what is wrong with people? Why wouldn't you automatically believe someone?

“that is so disgusting, you’re better of without them. Truth is, an awful lot of us humans have mixed genealogy but just don’t realise it. You would think it would broaden people’s minds but in your case sadly not.“

To be honest, unless it is beyond 6th generations, I found most of my match 100% mixed European. So that doesn’t help broaden their mind

“really dislike one of my co-workers who is Chinese, does that make me prejuduced against Chinese people or just against people who I find really fucking annoying?” Unless it becoming a pattern... you meet another person who is Chinese and you don’t like her either.

And if this person never did any harm to you and you can’t give give a very good reason why you don’t like her, maybe you should look long and hard about yourself

This thread just demonstrates why racism is still an issue. No one has to implicitly believe MM and Harry but their claims should be properly looked into, and whilst I'm sure most people don't intend any malice, we are all vulnerable to unconscious bias, institutional inequality issues etc. I just can't believe people will write off complaints so easily
It really saddens me.

The press should not only observe but also question. I presume as independent to the Rf, they can ask whatever questions they want

Of course but the point is that they *don’t^. It literally never happens. It must have been a real shock when that reporter broke protocol.

Why wouldn't you automatically believe someone?

Because recent history tells us it’s unwise. Did Carl Beech pass you by?

I would of course believe a person of colour who said they had experienced racism in their life because its bloody endemic sadly. But like I dont take people's own interpretations of things 100% at face value 100% of the time, there might well be times where I think 'well ok, that's how you see it but I was on the room too and that wasnt what was meant in my opinion'. Im speaking generally here. But regarless of colour, I do people the courtesy of treating them as individuals and as imperfect people and yes, I do occasionally think to myself (thoughts are still allowed I hope) that sometimes people in all kinds of situations get things wrong and sometimes they get things right and sometimes its a muddle with everyone having different views and perspectives. Again I would consider it condescending and almost infantalising to assume that any one group of people is always right, they are not children

@Blueberries0112

“really dislike one of my co-workers who is Chinese, does that make me prejuduced against Chinese people or just against people who I find really fucking annoying?” Unless it becoming a pattern... you meet another person who is Chinese and you don’t like her either.

And if this person never did any harm to you and you can’t give give a very good reason why you don’t like her, maybe you should look long and hard about yourself

Ok so now we're not allowed dislike someone unless we've compiled a dossier of reasons. And we ESPECIALLY cant dislike someone outside of our own immediate grouping in terms of colour, class etc because that is automatically prejudiced. Got it. The thought police indeed