POA Problems

[quicklybeingdrivenmad]

Posting on here for WWYD

My maternal aunt and uncle asked me to become POA for them as I had done the same for my parents, said it was because I lived closer than Uncles 2 sons from previous marriage who live down south (later came out that my aunt and uncle had previously made them POA but were sick of bailing them out of the financial messes, they got themselves into and did not trust them to have POA over their funds).

Just before 1st lockdown buried my aunt, uncle is in ill health, I have been checking on him, ordering his shopping for him to be delivered weekly, he got upset a few weeks back cos he was having a problem with their old joint account (now in his sole name) and could not sort it asked if I would register POA with bank to sort it (agreement prior to this was they would hold poa document and I would only register if asked by them or if it became apparent I needed to )

So contacted bank, ages on phone, scanned and sent as requested, get a letter asking me to take original into the bank with ID, weird cos was advised would all be done remotely, go into bank it turns out POA had been registered previously by the sons (aunt previously told me it had been same arrangement with them as me only to be used when necessary but due to distance they had the document, aunt and uncle just assumed new one would cancel old one)

My poa is now registered and problems sorted but turns out there have been a few transactions on one account that do not make sense cash taken out down south, which I cannot fathom a reason for as all his shopping etc is done up here on his debit card, I sort everything out for him, asked uncle indirectly if the boys had been in touch ( he calls them that even though they are 55) said no and he was sad about it.

I know they they will find out next time they go into the bank that their access is blocked, do i tell my uncle and hurt him further or confront them demanding the money goes back in, FYI when my aunt was dying in hospital 30 miles away from their home me and two other relatives did a rota and took him daily to see her, I asked them (sons) for help once and was advised by one "your aunt moved my dad up north he is your problem now" by the other I only have a few days holiday left and need to keep them in case it snows so not going to use it to come up north"

Am at a loss what to do

Let me make sure I understand this - you have a PoA which has already been registered with the Office of Public Guardian and which your uncle asked you to register with the bank so you could sort out some problem for him.

When you dealt with the bank, you found the PoA had already been registered by the sons. Is this the same PoA? ie have you both been named as attorneys, acting jointly and severally? Or was it a different PoA, which your uncle then had to revoke?

How much money is involved? Is it the odd 10quid or is it hundreds?

You could ask them, on the pretext that you were worried about some strange cash withdrawals, was it anything to do with them, or should you report it to the bank fraud department?

Or you could go to the Office of Public Guardian straight away.

Asking them first would be the decent thing to do. There may be an innocent explanation, eg purchases they made on line for him using their own credit card, and then withdraw compensatory cash. In which case they should have records to show this. Eg, if I buy something fro Amazon for my father, I will pay using my stored card, get delivery to his address, and refund myself from his funds, keeping all the receipts. Easier than adding a second card to the Amazon account, and more in keeping with his wishes as he was always too scared to do on-line shopping.

You could always repeat your question on Elderly Parents - lower audience, but more concentration of experience with PoA.

It’s potentially POA fraud if the sons have been taking money for their own benefit (and it sounds unlikely they’ve been doing it for your uncles benefit). Report it to the bank and the police.

I’d also suggest contacting other financial institutions your uncle has money with, in case the sons have been dipping into that as well. They won’t tell you anything if they haven’t registered your POA, but if you tell them there’s suspected fraud they should flag it internally.

I would report it to the bank and the police to cover your own back - if you know about irregular transactions and don’t report them that looks dodgy!

I had POA letter from office of public guardian, stating I was now POA (they had the legal document as was only to be used as needed, so although registered with OPG never taken into the banks (as thats the point of an LPA) previously cousins had been put as POA, aunt and uncle updated to make me POA as they did not trust them anymore.
They registered with the banks, when they got it, never used it until last year.

Its not for anything on amazon etc or anything they bought for him, last few things on amazon I have just paid for along with a few other things for him, and the amounts started not long after my aunty died because she would have noticed, they started quite small £20 /30/40 quid here and there which tbf he did not notice the last ones were pretty large and basically where the amount a parent could give their children each year and it not form part of their estate but am quite sure he will notice this when he gets a statement and was taken out pre my registering poa with the bank.

And I Fully aware of what POA means me and my brother held it for my mum and dad before they passed I handled day to day and would email him a monthly account just so he knew what was happening.
The post was about what do i do or say

How much in total looks dodgy?

If it’s a small amount overall, I would just message them to say FYI the POA at the bank is now in my name as requested by your dad. And leave it at that. Not worth the upset and fight to take it further.

If it’s a substantial amount, then as a first step I would contact them as above but comment on the transactions and ask them if they have any info about what they are for, as you don’t recognise them. See what they say and go from there.

Good luck OP - you sound very kind.

So was the money taken out after the sons POA was revoked?

Not that if it was before that makes it OK, just thinking if it is after then potentially the bank are liable for letting the withdrawal happen?

Oh what a terrible situation. I'm not sure what I would do. They don't sound very nice at all

basically where the amount a parent could give their children each year and it not form part of their estate

So are we talking around £7,000? How often?

I'd be reporting to the OPG, and to the police as theft. They obviously only see their father as a cash point, and you have no relationship with them, so it's not like you're going to break up the family.

Do they have a card for the account or was it taken in a bank branch? If they have a card get that cancelled asap. If they went into the branch make sure that branch is updated asap about POA. I do think your uncle needs to be made aware that his sons have been stealing from him. Not a nice conversation but you could always suggest going through the bank statements with him to check what has been stolen. Once he's confirmed that the money was stolen I'd contact the bank to let them know. However, if they sons previously had POA and had legal access to the accounts, it will be hard to prove theft if that POA was never cancelled.

Previous POA should have not been registered but it was no card on my part but apparently they/ him asked for one have canx this now so yes talking £6000 lump sum and cash out. they are locked out now of his money so now have they awful task of explaining it tommorow to him

Speak to the police?

You need to tell Uncle yes, and you will also need to tell OPG, OP. As an appointed attorney, you have a duty to do that. The fact is that by you exercising your power, it means your uncle no longer has capacity to make that decision. If you know of this theft, I’d be frankly a bit suspicious if you didn’t declare it. Sorry, you’re doing a lovely thing and a thankless mess to sort out.

How awful for you to have to deal with this.

I think you need to approach the sons, query the withdrawls, and ask them to sort it with their father.
Because if they don't, you're going to have to mention to him anything on his bank account which you're not clear about.

Then the ball's in their court, at least initially. Obviously, you'll have to bring it up after a while, to find out if the sons have contacted the father.
When the father knows, it's surely up to him to decide what action he wants to take?

@SurferRona , no, just because a person with POA is assisting someone with their banking, that does NOT mean that the person does not have capacity.
POA can be registered in 2 ways:
one only to be used if the person has lost mental capacity,
OR, to be used straightaway, even while the person has capacity, just that they require some assistance- eg to do online banking and deal with correspondance.

If the person had lost capacity, yes, the POA may have to take necessary decisions on their behalf.
If the person has capacity, and can take decisions themselves, it would be both morally and legally wrong to take a decision for them.

The possibility exists that this father may not want to be ripped off by his sons, but may choose to not take action against them that has legal consequences. That is his decision.

Can you raise the transaction with the bank now you have poa?

Does your uncle have capacity?

Also was the £6000 from a branch in large transactions or did they have a card and make ATM withdrawals?

Hello, I have some experience of LPOAs and the OPG.

The first thing you need to do is write to the two sons stating that, as from a certain date, you now have power of attorney and as such they no longer have access to the accounts and ask them to return their cards etc. to you so that you can destroy them.

Hopefully they will do this without argument.

Your next step would depend on how they replied to that letter and how the timescale of the big withdrawal relates to the timescale of your appointment.

If the big withdrawal was well before your appointment and they replied "nicely", I probably would avoid confrontation and not mention it at all.

If however they are antagonistic and/or the big withdrawal was close to or after your appointment then you would then need to write to them again asking them to account for their withdrawals.

If you are not happy with their response then you are then duty bound to report the situation to the OPG.

Not a pleasant course of action but you could be severely criticised for not reporting an unauthorised withdrawal of such a large amount after your appointment.

Definitely report, even if only to cover your own back!

I’d ask for an explanation and if as we expect there is nothing forthcoming report to opg and police. You must tell your uncle, but get facts first.

Update on this, the bulk of the money was taken last year (£6000) with little bits here and there, the original POA (not mine was registered not long after my aunts death) I registered mine 20/02/2021 when he asked for help on one issue, although he does get confused sometimes not at a stage where I would totally take over his finances as this would cause him more distress as he currently feels bad asking for help.
One of his sons has finally got back to me after nearly a week of voicemails and texts left for them and advised me of the following

They did not realise they no longer had POA - which is a lie because we spoke about it in June when we had the internment for my aunt.

They registered it when my aunt died just in case they needed to help their dad as he was in bits - I know I was the one picking up the pieces as they refused to come up north as they put it, cos it's chavvy up here, ffs

Asked about small cash taken out - reply stuff dad asked us to buy for him and we sent up - asked what as he rings me for everything from his food shop, his lap top not working sleep masks etc could not give me one example (asked uncle quite innocently if the boys had been sending him stuff, his answer no why?)

Asked why £6000 was taken out? son 1 reply I have just bought my first house (yes age 55) and I was £3000 short, every time we have borrowed money in the past, they have always given the other the same, so we just decided that's what he would want (you have never borrowed it's always been taken and never repaid, hence them removing you as POA and giving the other the same only cos they knew they would never get it back)

Turns out both of them knew about it and reading between the lines thought it would never come to light (how I do not know cos he is not that wealthy that he would miss £6k little bits yes but not that)

Upshot is I have spent a few hours today with a very distraught uncle, who has repeatedly tried to talk to his sons( they refused because I was there and hung up on him) he will not go to the police as both have jobs that need a DBS check, I have emailed them both and demanded the money be re-paid or at least a payment plan to do so.

Also he showed me his will because he now wants to re-write it leaving what he has to his grandchildren because they do ring him, ask if he is ok anything he wants and speak to me to check he is ok and visit him when they can.

So hopefully all will be ok now just so upset my uncle had to go through this

Your poor uncle :( What a mess :S

Make sure that any solicitors involved in the will can recognise in writing that he has testamentary capacity, as it is probable from the sound of it that the sons would contest it in due course

An important issues is whether the POAs were the older form "Enduring Power of Attorney" (EPA) documents or the newer "Lasting Power of Attorney" (LPA) documents. OP - can you clarify?

EPAs could only be made before 1st October 2007 - but if someone has signed one they can still be used and registered now.