Suspected School Place Fraud

[SchoolFraudDilemma]

This is more a WWYD.

If you suspected someone had fraudulently applied for a secondary school place, would you report it?

There is a very outside chance of an EHCP but it is unlikely.

I suspect that they've used a different address to their actual address when applying.

They live approx 6 miles from the school. According to the local authority data, the furthest place offered was 1.2m from the school.

Would you report it or just mind your own business?

Living somewhere for a year or two whilst owning another house is much harder to prove that you did it just for the school place

They don't have to prove you did. You have to prove you didn't.

And if you don't, the owned house is the one which will be used for admissions purposes. LAs can be very diligent about this, especially those which have, or recently have had, high levels of fraud in applications.

But what's the difference between that and people who move in catchment? Except that there's probably more luck involved in getting buyers and finding a house to move to - renting is generally a more certain prospect if you have the money. I know LOADS of people who've moved to get in catchment. But obviously only those who can afford to can do it.

It's a very fine line, surely?

A town near us used to be in catchment for a lovely school, now it's not. All the rich people have moved out. How is that fair to those children? I don't see the difference really.

I used to live in a country where state education was much better funded and better overall (wish I still lived there - bad move leaving) and you just didn't have people doing this to the same extent. There was no illusion of choice, you had to go to the school which was the catchment school for your house - none of this providing reasons, putting several schools down, all that expensive administrative bullshit was removed. People who - for whatever reason - didn't like their local school moved if they could afford to, and if not then tough (this is the reality of the system anyway here where there's huge inequality between schools because the nicer schools are all oversubscribed).

It was so much fairer, clearer and better. But of course since state education there wasn't so unequal and universally better it didn't cause quite such the same effect in terms of resulting in all the rich people living in one small part of a locality.

A family rents a property, or lives with relatives temporarily, and uses this address
in order to gain a school place, whilst retaining ownership of an alternative
property. In cases such as this, the property which is still owned by the family
would normally be considered as the appropriate address to assess admission
from, even if this property is not currently being occupied by the family.

So in LAs where just renting for a year is illegal, all those people who would've rented will just move, then, surely? As in actually move? If you have the money, why not?

I wouldn't say anything tbh. You never know what the reason is for them lying. Not sure why it bothers you so much tbh.

The difference is whether you've genuinely moved house once and for all or whether you fully intend to move back again, I guess. And if you haven't sold your previous house it's assumed you're going to move back unless you can prove otherwise.

"It was so much fairer, clearer and better. But of course since state education there wasn't so unequal and universally better it didn't cause quite such the same effect in terms of resulting in all the rich people living in one small part of a locality."

I do agree that this would be better. At the same time all this cheating to get into different schools doesn't help the system because those with the means to cheat don't invest properly in their local school.

It's a very fine line, surely?

No not a fine one, really.

It's the clear difference between selling up or quitting lease, and moving - so you have only one property at a time. And owning or owning/renting two properties simultaneously and flipping at the time of school applications.

The system really isn't improved by cheating.

And if you want guaranteed place in catchment school (with option to ask for a different school if and only if there are spare places at it) then that is available in UK. So if you want to go into system you see as fairer, clearer and better, move to the part of UK where that is the norm (all of Scotland)

Thing is, even if the parents have been fraudulent, there's a child who's probably been told where they're going, are really excited and who may now have their place pulled away. A disappointment they will remember their whole lives, probably.

It's the parents who are responsible for any disappointment though if they chose to lie in order to fraudulently obtain a place.

Why is it all about the feelings of the child who finds out they don't have a place their parents lied to get and not about all the feelings of children who miss out places they are entitled to and have to be educated away from their friends/family/local area due to dishonest parents thinking they're better than everyone else?

@ThatsNotTheTeaHunty

I wouldn't say anything tbh. You never know what the reason is for them lying. Not sure why it bothers you so much tbh.

I do find this attitude weird I know people who have done the same kind of cheating and I have shrugged it off because, well, I don't ultimately care that much - not enough to make myself a social pariah. But that's a moral failing in me really, I can see why people do care. Surely it's the same as any fraud/cheating going unnoticed and the victims are those whose parents either play by the system or don't have the means to cheat? Why don't you care would be the more pertinent question, surely?

Are you basing the potential fraud purely on the distance? Where I am, the distance is only for children who come under the criteria in catchment or outside of catchment. All the other sections of the admissions policy such as siblings, faith, children of staff and anything else on the list isn’t shown on the distance.

No I agree, the feelings of the other children are important too, which is why it is so shocking that there is such a gulf between different state schools.

My daughter has been quite upset because one of her school friends, with rich parents, is going around saying she's going to a lovely private school and how much better that is than the state school(s) that all the other girls are going to. The thing is, it's not kind but it's not untrue.

The state education system is just the same thing really.

It seems that having rules against things like renting is just piling up administrative barriers to try and disguise the inherent unfairnesses.

The people who are able to will always ensure they get their kids in the best school.

Change the catchment; people move. No renting, people move and sell old house. Say you have to have lived there longer, people move earlier.

It seems like it MIGHT be better - if fairness to the children involved in terms of access to decent education is the intended aim - to ensure state schools all meet a certain standard.

I haven't read the whole thread, I had this scenario with my son,
I was a refused a place in the school where my DD was already , (in my village) I knew there were at least 2 children accepted from 2 other villages that were not in the catchment area.
I kicked up.... Big time

see also Diane Abbott - believes in state education, sent her son to a private school

See also Diane Abbott - a child's father also has equal input into where his child attends school.

See also Jeremy Corbyn - alleged to have ended up divorcing as a result of the other parent disagreeing where the children should go to school.

Definitely don’t report it! That’s awful. It’s none of your business. The house next door to me was empty for three years. I know the people bought it for the school place but it’s none of my business.

There are other reasons apart from EHCP where kids are offered place despite being further away.

Later, when DS went to secondary, he was refused a place with all his school friends, as we were technically not in the right catchment, except my 2 immediate neighbours had places for their kids, one had given a false address in the right area, the other's fathers a councillor at the town hall

I definitely agree to an extent JK, but equally there's an awful lot of snobbery around schools. Schools do have to meet certain standards, those which aren't the favoured schools of the sharp elbowed are not necessarily desperate shit holes. My own school was described on here as "a school I wouldn't send a dog to never mind a child" and it really was fine with some really dedicated teachers and I did very well academically. I honestly don't know what people imagine it to be like. There was a thread on here the other day asking for experiences of a school local to me now, saying they were considering it for their child. The only comments were from people who admitted they didn't really know anything about it other than the fact it's on an estate and yet tried to put the woman off in favour of a single sex school further away.

I would report it they could be denying another child a school place and I bet that if the shoe was on the other foot and another child's parents lie had denied them a place for their DC they would be the first on the phone to report them.

Report. Someone else's child would have been denied their rightful place. If they are entitled to the place, they should be able to prove it.

@sneakysnoopysniper

If there is one thing I loathe its busybody snitches. They are weak people and should get a life of their own.

I couldn'd disagree more. Anyone can go along with the status quo and with the majority. Standing up for what is right takes some courage.

BTW your user name could not be more at odds with your comment!

There was a thread on here the other day asking for experiences of a school local to me now, saying they were considering it for their child. The only comments were from people who admitted they didn't really know anything about it other than the fact it's on an estate and yet tried to put the woman off

The exact thing happened to me when considering primaries. Similar situation, on an estate.

We went to see the school, we thought it was lovely, the head seem competent and no-nonsense. All good. The amount of pearl clutching when we said that's the scholl we liked was insane. Asked if they knew the school, not one of the pearl-clutchers had visited the school or knew anything about it .

School snobbery is a thing!

But going back to the OP, I would report. So bloody unfair to the kid left out the place legitimately belongs to.

Why is it all about the feelings of the child who finds out they don't have a place their parents lied to get and not about all the feelings of children who miss out places they are entitled to and have to be educated away from their friends/family/local area due to dishonest parents thinking they're better than everyone else?

Absolutely this one million percent. I get it’s disappointing for the child whose parent lied, but they will have to suck it up and go elsewhere. The child who misses out on their rightful place and has to go to the other side of town is the child I feel really sorry for.

So what only ONE child from the area didn't get in?

@MolyHolyGuacamole Didn’t affect me directly, so heard second hand - but one of those cases where a local village kid didn’t get in at the expense of the flat renting estate agent. As I said, there was hugely bad feeling about it - and must have been pretty awful being the child shoehorned in. I suppose my point is that people know, if they come to find out. And feelings and tensions can run pretty high.

if you don't report it, you are guilty as the fraudster.

@IloveJKRowling

But what's the difference between that and people who move in catchment? Except that there's probably more luck involved in getting buyers and finding a house to move to - renting is generally a more certain prospect if you have the money. I know LOADS of people who've moved to get in catchment. But obviously only those who can afford to can do it.

It's a very fine line, surely?

A town near us used to be in catchment for a lovely school, now it's not. All the rich people have moved out. How is that fair to those children? I don't see the difference really.

it is completely different.

you are not stealing a place, you live there!
You are part of the community, the child goes in their neighbourhood school. They are friends with local kids, parents get involved in that school, fundraise for that school.

Obviously it's not fair the royal family can afford private school and access to any university regardless of their academic level, but the world is not "fair".

It's still completely different from people who lie , and steal a space they have no right to. They force their own kids to travel when they shouldn't, and they stop a local child from accessing their school and be with their friends and neighbours.

Absolutely report.