What will it take for humans to radically improve their treatment of other animals?

[WankmasterBastardDeLaShithead]

The news about bird to human transmission of avian flu in Russia got me wondering. Surely it's only a matter of time before our mistreatment of animals (intensive farming etc) leads to another pandemic.

Even though so many of us are absolutely broken from the current pandemic, I'm not seeing any major shifts in attitude to factory farming/ cheap meat and dairy etc. How bad does it have to get before we change our ways?

As long as there are increasing numbers of people to feed, factory/intensive farming will always be there. I don't know what the alternative would be, but I guess if you want to make any impact at all you could consider going vegetarian/vegan or shopping more ethical. Such as free-range, organic meat and eggs.

The treatment of animals in a lot of industries is heartbreaking OP, not just in the food industry don't even get me started about the treatment of pangolins in certain countries. It is devastating and so cruel.

Realistically, it will take strict regulation on farming practices and food labelling. People do care about the welfare of animals in many cases, they just often don't get a choice in the matter. As an example, about 80% of people in the UK buy free range eggs, but nearly 50% of eggs produced here are lower welfare. These are used to make the food that the same people buy; cakes, mayo, scotch eggs, sandwiches, etc. It's hard to make conscious decisions as a consumer when the information isn't necessarily readily available.

@WankmasterBastardDeLaShithead

The news about bird to human transmission of avian flu in Russia got me wondering. Surely it's only a matter of time before our mistreatment of animals (intensive farming etc) leads to another pandemic.

Even though so many of us are absolutely broken from the current pandemic, I'm not seeing any major shifts in attitude to factory farming/ cheap meat and dairy etc. How bad does it have to get before we change our ways?

A suitable replacement being found.

At which point we will slaughter all the farm animal species and that will be that I guess.

We're also so used to cheap food that people are unable or unwilling to cover the increase in costs.

People don't care about animal welfare because they can't see it. Very soon will come the "I only eat grass fed beef from the local butcher" crew as if that makes a blind bit of difference. As long as we carry on like this we will continue to have animal-human infections and we'll have absolutely brought it on ourselves. Any one who thinks it's only wet markets that are the problem are deluding themselves.

But the problem for the flu/virus is the same as almost any industry getting people to wear ppe.

All the humane treatment in the world doesn't matter if the bucher removing the lungs long after it's dead isn't wearing his mask because its annoying

OP your username is brilliant!!

In a word time.

Our civilisation is entering a boom or ruin period and if we make it through the next 100 years I'm sure we'll look back as a species at this period and wonder how we could be so short sighted, barbaric and selfish in all aspects of our lives.

Unfortunately right now it feels like we're heading further down the ruin path. Through climate change (of which animal agriculture is a massive contributor), over population and resource depletion I can't see anything but total societal collapse within the next 100 or so years.

I’ve always said humans would pay for their treatment of animals. We (humans) trash this earth as though no one else lives here, we make no regard for anyone but ourselves, it’s almost as if we were here first?! Animals come a very low second, and don’t even get me started on the trees, wildlife etc. Although I am trying to make changes myself, I can’t see that anyone else really links animal treatment to the current pandemic. The government haven’t mentioned it have they? I worry for my children’s children.

@Sapho47 what do you mean by a suitable replacement? Do you mean a replacement to meat and dairy? The way I see it, there are already suitable replacements (it's perfectly feasible to eat healthily and pleasurably on a vegetarian or vegan diet!).

I was imagining a "magical" scenario earlier: if we could somehow be given the choice that everything would be instantly returned to normal, and the only requirement was that we couldn't eat meat/dairy, would people do it? Obviously that's a fantasy, but the reality is that we will be doing this again in the future (and quite possibly with a worse virus than covid) if we carry on as we're doing.

This might be reductio ad absurdum, but at the moment it seems like people would choose eating meat/dairy over and above freedom, fun and family.

We need far less humans. So we should let the next pandemic run it course without impeding it.

Yes, that's one way to look at it, although a tough one for me as I have kids and I don't want them to suffer horribly!

Plus, I think that reasoning comes from the stance that humans are a scourge on the planet. I don't think that has to be the case! I think the planet could support the population if we lived more thoughtfully.

it's perfectly feasible to eat healthily and pleasurably on a vegetarian or vegan diet!

I've yet to find a way to consistently replace meat, eggs and dairy in my diet with the products with the same nutritional value.

Particularly meat and eggs, the high protein/low carb combination that I need for my diet. I do eat a lot of quorn/Linda McCartney, but these are often lower in protein, more processed, higher in calories, and, a particular concern of mine, comparatively very high in salt.

Being low carb I have to avoid things like pulses (which I love) but often substitute the meat element of a meal with say mushrooms. Getting the balance right is so hard and I hate eating meat etc, but the alternatives aren't there yet.

Just to add I come from a long line of Irish farmers. It was the norm to kill and eat your own livestock, which I don't have a problem with as they had decent lives before slaughter. It was about as far away from intensive/industrial level farming as you can get.

@Sparklfairy I'm being nosy, so don't feel you have to answer, but do you have a medical condition that would be problematic if you cut out meat and dairy? I have no problem getting enough protein without them. I have good muscle mass, and recent blood tests showed good levels of iron, folate, b12 etc. I think human bodies are brilliantly adaptable!

Daft question I know, but if we all stopped eating meat & dairy would farm animals just die out?

Seriously though OP, I read an article (might even have been on Twitter) on the extortionate costs of vegetables and fruit in areas of the world where the climate is not suited to growing them. The idea of vegetarianism or veganism is actually quite a privileged one.

MilkTwoSugars - you're probably right about it being a relatively privileged diet, but I would also imagine that there's far less risk of zoonotic transmission from someone rearing a handful of goats or chickens than there is in a factory farm. I would imagine that the poorest farmers aren't routinely pumping antibiotics into the animals and keeping them in such insanitary conditions that disease is rife.

It won't change because where's the profit?

Until enough people reject it that it more profitable to explore other options nothing will change.

Or when antibiotic resistance catches up.

Ultimately people want to live in a world where they can access their choices e.g. cheap meat and dairy. On paper both of those things are awful for the environment and human health but of gov legislated against it there would be fury even though it's the right decision.

I would imagine that the poorest farmers aren't routinely pumping antibiotics into the animals and keeping them in such insanitary conditions that disease is rife.

Of course, but what surprised me about the article was it wasn't poor farmers. It was written by a woman who lived... (I'm racking my brain here...) might have been Canada? Undoubtedly a fairly remote area, but not "the middle of nowhere". The photos were of products in a large supermarket.

I was genuinely surprised and I think that's why it stayed with me.

I think there should be a bigger push to organic meat/eggs/dairy, like there is to veganism. Whilst not perfect it is a big improvement on animal welfare and reduced antibiotic use. Obviously not everyone can afford the higher price tag that comes with lower intensity farming, but I do think it could be a really positive change for those who don't want to go full on veggie/vegan. And the more demand for higher welfare, the more businesses will listen.

Yes that surprises me too! It's hard to imagine that it would be too expensive to NOT eat meat in a developed country.

Perhaps there's a warped perspective on food costs though. My food bill is definitely much lower than someone buying (truly) humanely treated meat and dairy, but it's probably higher than someone eating a lot of cheap (intensively farmed) meat etc. I think it's really awful that a veggie burger / bean burger often costs more than a meat burger. It shows such disrespect and degradation of another creature. I wonder what would happen if factory farmed meat simply wasn't available (genuine question, not a rhetorical one).

Yes, I think there's a lot of sense in that, whatsissname.

Aha!

[quote WankmasterBastardDeLaShithead]@Sparklfairy I'm being nosy, so don't feel you have to answer, but do you have a medical condition that would be problematic if you cut out meat and dairy? I have no problem getting enough protein without them. I have good muscle mass, and recent blood tests showed good levels of iron, folate, b12 etc. I think human bodies are brilliantly adaptable![/quote]
Not that I know of but I am trying to lose weight, so eat low carb, high protein. I would dearly love to become vegetarian at the very least, but trying to find the balance in my meals is proving difficult. It is something I'm moving towards, but I can't help but be disappointed when I pick up a vegetarian option and see the high carbs and salt vs a chicken breast with vegetables. I don't even really like meat, so it's not a taste or texture thing.

I posted a few weeks ago on another thread. I said that quorn was originally invented to try and mass produce food quickly and cheaply and end world hunger. Then marketers got hold of hit and pitched it as a meat replacement The conversation then turned to the idea that, say, if a leg of lamb could be produced or 'grown' in a lab, would people buy that instead of an actual leg from a previously living animal. Science is moving forward that organs can be grown artificially, but currently they have to be grown inside a living 'host' or the cells die. Possibly in the future (probably not in my lifetime) this would be possible, and in my mind it would be a great solution.

I think that there needs to be better government regulations and it to be actually enforced. It may push the price of meat up a bit and encourage us to use the whole of the animal, but that's no bad thing.

‘We need far less humans. So we should let the next pandemic run it course without impeding’.

I’m guessing that you’re writing this on your way to Dignitas with your kids and assorted loved ones? Or do you not count yourself as human?