Experiences as a trainee solicitor

[MrsABC123]

Name changed for this post as it might be fairly revealing. Not sure why I am posting this now but I have been mulling over some past experiences and wanted to know whether people think I am overreacting or not. At the time I brushed this stuff off but now I'm not sure. This all happened about 7 - 10 years ago.

For context, I was a trainee at a very well regarded silver circle firm in London. Completed my training contract and was offered a role in the department of my choice where I stayed until 3 years PQ at which point I changed careers completely having become totally disillusioned with the hours I was working (routinely - and I really do mean routinely - leaving after midnight) and no support from partners.

Anyway, the three experiences below definitely added to the stress and anxiety I experienced and I wonder what you make of them:

1. My first supervisor (male, 38, married, 3 kids): would allude to the fact he and his wife no longer had sex, told me that if the end of the world was coming he'd take me into the prayer room and shag me, other things like that. Full disclosure: I definitely had a crush on him but now reframing it, I wonder if it's all a bit gross considering I was only 23...

1. Second supervisor: made it clear he didn't like me from the word go (not sure why, I probably was a bit hopeless), would shout at me or ignore me, told me in my mid-seat review that he couldn't think of one positive thing about me so he had written that I "made a nice cup of tea." I was later told that he had a "problem" with "nice looking young women" by a senior associate who had the same experience with him as a trainee.

1. Post qualification I sat with the 60 year old male head of department from about 2 years PQ who would hide parts of my lunch in his desk drawer that he deemed to be "unhealthy" (stuff like popcorn mainly) and refuse to give it back. He'd also complain that I didn't get in until 9.30am when he was at his desk at 8 (he left at 5 on the dot, I left at 10 earliest).

What does everyone think about this? In retrospect I find it all rather unpleasant and am angry that my experience in law (which I worked bloody hard for and at) was ended by a combination of toxic work environment and unbelievably long hours.

AIBU or not? Anyone else have similar experiences?

In my first job out of a law firm I thought my boss was amazing. It took me months to realise that just because he didn't grope me, ignore me, shout or throw things at me, set me up to fail, otherwise bully me and had some social skills didn't make him amazing but normal.

I work for myself now and friends in creative industries ask don’t I miss the office? Err no you have no idea! Their colleagues are arty interesting creative types mine were lawyers and dreadful secretaries.

@DettolDoll

Absolutely about the popularity contest. I was in a meeting with my boss and he went on a full on rant about a trainee being “shit” with lots of swearing and derogatory comments about her expecting to be spoon fed. It made me feel so uncomfortable. I left shortly after.

Oh this brings me back......

I had similar experiences training with a big 4 accountancy firm.

Awful, the girls were so bitchy. The men sexist pigs.

Really made my blood boil that they had a company day were the males got to go play golf. The females got to stay in the office as there would have to be a presence.

The females were regularly reminded of the dress code... They wanted you wearing skirts.

I honestly thought I would have a breakdown. Far too passive for that sort of environment. I even had the joy of being tasked to babysit a partners kids regularly. Unpaid!!

But I am honestly glad I went through that because there is no way I would tolerate it now. Maybe not so passive these days

The main reason I decided not to train as a solicitor despite having top uni law degree was that it’s a miserable miserable life at the bottom end: micromanagement, poor management, endless office politics, bullying sexism, sucking up to partners, horrific hours, massive drinking/ drugs culture.

And then after 15/20 yrs you make partner and it’s still pretty miserable and incompatible with taking any responsibility for actually raising your kids yourself- your time is really not your own.

Don’t regret the choice. I would have been deeply miserable and money really isn’t everything.

This isn't what I want to read at all .
My gorgeous , sparky 18yo DD just started her Law Degree in Sept ( could be Oct) and enjoying it (though mainly study at home) .
Her aim is to be a Solicitor specialising in Family Law .

I hope she can sharpen her metaphorical elbows !

Not my experience (10 pqe, so trainee about the same time as you). I’ve worked for a few idiots over the years but never experienced or seen any real bullying or harassment. I’ve only worked in two firms though, both with a friendly and supportive culture - I know from friends that not all are like this. It all depends on who you’ve got at the top.

^^Family law isn’t a thriving area at the moment. But she has plenty of time to decide what to specialise in. Or whether to bother at all.

@ElderMillennial 9.30 official start time is standard for law firms in the City. Some people might drift in around 10, which is similar to having a start time of 9 elsewhere and drifting in around 9.30, but sounds like that’s not what OP is talking about. The issue of how late you need to stay at night to justify coming in late is another thread entirely...

@Dingbat ^^Family law isn’t a thriving area at the moment.

Not my experience at all - family member is a partner in a niche family firm and working 14 hour days at the moment.

All of that and worse in top Scottish firms 15 years ago. Male partners sexually harassing female trainees, men mocking the women: a colleague of mine got a bollocking for getting pregnant in the middle of a big project. It was utterly toxic. I got out and never once looked back.

Hmm I'm a solicitor trained and been working at big bad US corporate firms in London with a reputation of being brutal. Honestly, none of that comes close to my experience. Incredibly long hours? Yes. Incredible amount of stress? Yes. Aggressive, male, no compassion or desire to train the younger generation? Yes. But such rife sexual harrasment and unprofessional behaviour has definitely not been my experience at all. Not once. The years as a trainee were horrific because of the hours and having no control over your own work. But as I have moved up the ranks, the work has become easier and more interesting and I make about 5x more money than your average London office worker so I now, at the age of 33, have the option to specialize in something different, leave for something better etc. I don't think your experience is the norm for a young attorney nowadays and we need to stop considering it normal.

@70isaLimitNotaTarget don't worry, that's really not the norm. You wouldn't have thousands of highly educated young people persevering with this profession if it were. People are a lot more likely to post about bad experiences. The only thing I'd say about family law is that it's an incredibly hard area of law from a.personal point of view and not very rewarding professionally. I thought I wanted family law but after working in it for a while, I switched. You deal with really bad relationships, children etc and the paperwork is all the same and mundane...I'm not the type that can leave things emotionally at the office so I found it too hard mentally and not rewarding professionally and financially. So your DD needs to keep her mind open.

Thanks everyone for your comments, definitely made me feel better.

I actually think it's NOT the norm anymore but it is also very common still. What @WhereamI88 describes is absolutely my experience of corporate law but then it was compounded by the bullying and unhappiness which just made the situation untenable for me. I resent it now because I feel like my choice of career (i.e. staying in law) was taken away from me because of the behaviour I experienced compounded by the work itself. And I look at people earning £150k+ and I'm jealous basically!

But then I also look at my children and think it's nice to be able to see them in daylight hours. I guess I made the decision so now I need to stick to it...

PS My firm actually has a really excellent reputation for its culture and its training programme so it just goes to show you can find arseholes everywhere.

I still think law is a good career to train in if you are interested and have the skill set. its rigorous and well respected so you can step away from it and do other good things if you want. The posters whose dd wants to do family law that’s what I initially wanted to do but you don’t have to decide for a while and whatever people say you can utterly change fields (I have!). Firms are different I have worked in high street mid tier and magic circle and there are good and bad in all. My advice would be if you are unhappy - move! There are always other options.

I suspect that many of these experiences are about the era (coupled with long hours/big egos) rather than law per se.

I think (hope) that things have changed a lot in the last 10 years. Combination of #MeToo, Harvey Weinstein, diversity training, more focus on mental health and work/life balance, more open discussion of these things online... I think fewer seniors would try this kind of behaviour, and would be shat on more heavily if they did.

I suspect that many of these experiences are about the era (coupled with long hours/big egos) rather than law per se

Whilst there have been an improvements over the years and I/we can’t speak for all firms or lawyers, you will see that sadly several of us in the industry have confirmed that sadly these behaviours are still pervasive.
Whilst many firms have also risen to the challenge of a pandemic, I have also seen some appalling behaviours that sum up everything that is wrong with toxic working practices. Including the partner who tested positive for Covid, didn’t inform anyone and instead insisted his trainee and PA were in the office with him (the trainee sharing an office). You can guess the outcome of that one.

It also doesn’t take much scrolling on legal gossip sites to see some of the other behaviours that have been mentioned here (and not isolated to sexism either).

I’m not saying it means a career in law is doomed to all this, but please, don’t dismiss those of us saying we are living through this shit in the industry.

I think law is a good thing to train in, but it's increasingly difficult to qualify - I see people now doing paralegal jobs and wonder how the heck I managed to get into it. But you do have to be a certain type of person and lawyers are perhaps more critical than any other profession I've come across. You get told it's ok to make mistakes, it's how you learn etc. Not in law. You make one tiny mistake and it will be held against you.

several of us in the industry have confirmed that sadly these behaviours are still pervasive but I have to say I fundamentally disagree that law is full of sexual harassment cases waiting to happen. Maybe I've always had a face that said don't even think about it. I do agree that some firms (or departments) can be toxic though.

Unfortunately that was my experience of training in the mid 2010s.

The me-too movement happened shortly after and that’s the first time I realised I had been sexually assaulted a number of times (not to mention the bullying and general harassment).

Actually I do remember a partner shouting at me once. A man in his mid 30s shouting at a woman in her mid 20s isn't a good look. But it was a one-off. Can't remember if he apologised.

@EveryoneRevealsThemselves

I suspect that many of these experiences are about the era (coupled with long hours/big egos) rather than law per se

Whilst there have been an improvements over the years and I/we can’t speak for all firms or lawyers, you will see that sadly several of us in the industry have confirmed that sadly these behaviours are still pervasive.
Whilst many firms have also risen to the challenge of a pandemic, I have also seen some appalling behaviours that sum up everything that is wrong with toxic working practices. Including the partner who tested positive for Covid, didn’t inform anyone and instead insisted his trainee and PA were in the office with him (the trainee sharing an office). You can guess the outcome of that one.

It also doesn’t take much scrolling on legal gossip sites to see some of the other behaviours that have been mentioned here (and not isolated to sexism either).

I’m not saying it means a career in law is doomed to all this, but please, don’t dismiss those of us saying we are living through this shit in the industry.

Apologies, I hadn’t read the whole thread and hadn’t seen there were more current examples.

How depressing

I saw similar behaviour as a paralegal and trainee at a large Midlands firm. As well as the sexism, there were also a couple of female partners who subjected their junior staff to some appalling bullying and who were tribunal claims waiting to happen. HR were basically there to cover for the partners. On one occasion they gave a (mandatory) workshop on stress management, introduced by the senior partner, in which they tried to justify the toxic environment and lack of pay rises. This was four years ago so fairly recent.

I'm really surprised by this to be honest! I'm not a lawyer but have lots of friends who are in city firms and they're generally the most measured and considered people I know. I can't imagine them putting up with this or perpetuating it.

@HotChoc10

I'm really surprised by this to be honest! I'm not a lawyer but have lots of friends who are in city firms and they're generally the most measured and considered people I know. I can't imagine them putting up with this or perpetuating it.

Because the mark of a good trainee and junior associate is is how well you can put up with the partners’ disrespect and bullying with composure.

The culture (at least in the city firm I trained at) was very much that trainees/associates who got signed off for stress or complained were “weak” and couldn’t cope with the demands of city law. It was an effective way of marginalising those who didn’t put up with it.

Like I said - I didn’t even realise any of this wasn’t normal until the me-too movement, and until I joined another firm and had a new boss who never shouted at me or took his frustrations out on me. So I imagine if I had stayed where I trained, I would have become institutionalised.

Before I got a training contract I worked for a fairly large firm and went on a training day. During the course of the day/evening I had 3 male solicitors. Inc 2 partners try it on.

I'm a mouthy cow and told them all very loudly what I thought of them.

I left and got tc. I have had a few odd comments over the years but my experience has been good. The last firm I worked for were extremely good. They employed a solicitor at interview told them she intended to have babies in the near future. They didn't bat an eyelid at it.

And family law is buoyant at the moment so not sure who suggested otherwise.

So no OP your experience isn't the same as mine but I never worked for a magic circle firm. I knew I would never have fitted in