To think without retail we have to plan what to use our high streets for?

[omygoditsearly]

So retail has been in decline for years, covid has hastened the end of many large stores and changed habits. But we still have the physical infrastructure so what do we want to do with it?
Much retail space pave has been snapped up by property developers to build rabbit hutches but I can't see that working once a high street is gone. I suppose some could be bulldozed and consumed by urban sprawl but then many are older or protected so that would be difficult too. Does any one have any thoughts on how these spaces may be used in the future?

@JackieWeaverIsTheAuthority

It’ll become housing. There’s a massive housing crisis.

That's all well and good but the necessary infrastructure won't be put in place. We'll still have the same amount of doctors, dentists, schools etc. There won't be adequate parking, drainage systems won't be upgraded (I did have to laugh at a picture of building site near me that was under water a few weeks ago) and so everyone will suffer, people who currently live there and those who buy the new properties.

That's all well and good but the necessary infrastructure won't be put in place. We'll still have the same amount of doctors, dentists, schools etc. There won't be adequate parking, drainage systems won't be upgraded (I did have to laugh at a picture of building site near me that was under water a few weeks ago) and so everyone will suffer, people who currently live there and those who buy the new properties.

I didn’t say I was planning to convert them all to housing.

I didn't say you did

So what point were you trying to make?

That if too many high streets are converted into housing (which I suspect they will be, especially in the South Eastj the required infrastructure needs to be put into place (as I said in my first post).

Yeah so? The infrastructure will be put in place. Just like it is for every other place that gets turned into residential accommodation.

Cafes, restaurants, bars with performing spaces for bands and open mic nights, theatres, charity shops and small independent artisan retailers, doctors surgeries, pharmacies, small play centres for kids, community halls. How amazing would town centres be if they evolved to provide all of those kinds of things.

My view on the high street being in decline is because they are boring, dull and uninspiring places. It just isn’t fun or exciting to shop at an indentikit high street filled with chain stores and generic cafes and bakeries. It’s boring and I don’t blame people for staying home and ordering online. Diversity and choice is what high streets need, but I have a feeling the cost of renting retail spaces will need to be reduced for any of the above ideas to become a realistic possibility.

@JackieWeaverIsTheAuthority

Yeah so? The infrastructure will be put in place. Just like it is for every other place that gets turned into residential accommodation.

I'm not sure what your problem is with my posts but if you think that every time houses are built there are more doctors, dentists etc then you're wrong. Yes it does sometimes, but often we all just have to make do.

I'm not sure what your problem is with my posts

you quoted my post. Not the other way round. You’re clearly the one who had a problem with my post.

but if you think that every time houses are built there are more doctors, dentists etc then you're wrong. Yes it does sometimes, but often we all just have to make do.

And again, so? This is what happens, what makes you think it won’t happen with retail space conversions? You seem to think that because you don’t think it should happen that means it won’t happen. That’s not how it works.

I like the technology driven pop up shop ideas

That means giving out short term rents to new ideas and independent shops, and using technology so that things are much more agile. I have seen examples where the property owners kit out the shops with electronic display devices that can put your branding on at the click of a mouse, the shop is kitted out in pretty plain but 'cool' decor, and it becomes possible to move in within 24 hours - no refit, no rebrand (electronic displays)

This overcomes the problems with long-term leases (for both parties) and the risk that new businesses take in taking them on

THere are thousands of people who would like to open a shop but won't because of the huge risks involved and short-term, easy to move in premises would incentivise many people to take the leap (and landlords will be happy because of the quick turnaround aspect)

I. DO. NOT. HAVE. A. PROBLEM. WITH. YOUR FIRST. POST. Just because I quoted it doesn't mean I have a problem with it.

I wasn't aware that I could only post if I agreed with you. As it happens I do believe that some high streets will become housing.

I'm making the point (yet again) that if it happens, I very much doubt we will get the extra doctors, dentists or schools which will be needed. I'm not saying that houses or flats won't be built.

Jesus Christ it's hard work sometimes!

This is a particular issue where I live- Tunbridge Wells. We already have lots of independent shops, cafes, butchers, greengrocers etc. We already have three large parks with sports facilities, a skate park plus smaller parks with playgrounds and an enormous common. We also have the out of town retail park with all the massive shops there as well as the cinema, bowling alley and so on. The town centre has essentially two main retail areas, one with most of the independent shops, cafes, restaurants etc (and an inexplicably large number of estate agents) and one with a large shopping mall with the usual high street names. The more high street-y area of town and the shopping mall now consist of empty unit after empty unit after empty unit. It can’t stay as it is but I have no idea what else can be done with it.

@JackieWeaverIsTheAuthority

I'm not sure what your problem is with my posts

you quoted my post. Not the other way round. You’re clearly the one who had a problem with my post.

but if you think that every time houses are built there are more doctors, dentists etc then you're wrong. Yes it does sometimes, but often we all just have to make do.

And again, so? This is what happens, what makes you think it won’t happen with retail space conversions? You seem to think that because you don’t think it should happen that means it won’t happen. That’s not how it works.

Unfortunately my experience is that you are wrong. Every new development or redevelopment near me has caused further strain on already scarce resources like schools, health facilities, transport etc. For some reason those that grant planning permission are very keen to do so regardless of whether the application has adequate provision in this respect.

you quoted my post. Not the other way round. You’re clearly the one who had a problem with my post.

It's a discussion. She quoted you to continue the discussion. No need to be so aggressive

I was wondering this when walking through Liverpool town centre today. I can see the offices above shops being converted to apartments (I’d love to live there) but there’s an entire shopping complex that couldn’t have that done I don’t think.

I don’t think we have a housing crisis. We have an affordable housing crisis which is very different. And I agree with other posters that city planners rarely seem to consider that moving thousands more people into the area to live means associated health/dental/etc needs to also be built - but this rarely happens.

Offices, hotels or housing. I do think the high street will totally disappear in the next 10 years. Restaurants, cafes, coffee shops and bars will always exist because people love drinking and eating out but along with banks, that is just about all the high street will consist of.

I live on the outskirts of London and the local high street is shockingly bad with mostly friend chicken shops and pizza places with 2 star hygiene ratings, Poundland, Iceland, Tesco and a couple of hairdressers.

Yet the rents and rates are so high that it's not possible for local people to start a business there. There are also some empty buildings (which were previously in council use) but again the rent is astronomical so they stand empty even though there are willing volunteers and community groups wanting to set up a community hub and a cafe.

But our council tax is going up anyway to start paying back the costs of covid so I don't see this changing... Probably more empty shops in our future.

Monica I agree, I think the problem is that R.V.Place is too big for the local population. I can't think of a centre with more empty units in the South East. I think the council turned down a Primark ten years ago which was a big mistake.
It seems to have reached the point of no return now. Perhaps they could sell off the lower floor and move the cafe area upstairs, reduce the size?
Housing in shopping centres is not new- flats have been built above centres such as Wandsworth Southside has housing above it and so does The Mall Uxbridge, but they were purpose built at the time and are not without problems.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

I. DO. NOT. HAVE. A. PROBLEM. WITH. YOUR FIRST. POST. Just because I quoted it doesn't mean I have a problem with it.

I wasn't aware that I could only post if I agreed with you. As it happens I do believe that some high streets will become housing.

I'm making the point (yet again) that if it happens, I very much doubt we will get the extra doctors, dentists or schools which will be needed. I'm not saying that houses or flats won't be built.

Jesus Christ it's hard work sometimes!

Glad you finally clarified the point you were making. Your initial response seemed to be saying “that won’t happen because...” I didn’t say You could only post if you agreed with me- I was asking what your point was. Because again, that wasn’t clear. Agree- it’s hard work sometimes.

@HeyDemonsItsYaGirl

you quoted my post. Not the other way round. You’re clearly the one who had a problem with my post.

It's a discussion. She quoted you to continue the discussion. No need to be so aggressive

There was no aggression (from me)

I’m not even sure what’s in our town centre anymore. I’m going to go worth bookies, pawn shops and charity shops, a few Poundland’s and places to eat.

Haven’t been for years unless I need the bank. It’s too busy, too the same and it stinks frankly.

This is what has happened to one gone bust store here me
www.sussexlive.co.uk/news/sussex-news/landmark-development-replace-beales-worthing-4567007

COVID has pretty much closed it down for now but post COVID it will be interesting to see if there is the demand for it.
On the other side of the street Debenhams has gone so maybe if it is a success they will expand.

@hamstersarse

I like the technology driven pop up shop ideas

That means giving out short term rents to new ideas and independent shops, and using technology so that things are much more agile. I have seen examples where the property owners kit out the shops with electronic display devices that can put your branding on at the click of a mouse, the shop is kitted out in pretty plain but 'cool' decor, and it becomes possible to move in within 24 hours - no refit, no rebrand (electronic displays)

This overcomes the problems with long-term leases (for both parties) and the risk that new businesses take in taking them on

THere are thousands of people who would like to open a shop but won't because of the huge risks involved and short-term, easy to move in premises would incentivise many people to take the leap (and landlords will be happy because of the quick turnaround aspect)

Well, not really, because most long term leases are "Full Repairing and Insuring Leases" which generally means that they have to be substantially upgraded at the end of the lease term by the outgoing tenant. That has a bearing on the cost of rent charged. If the landlord has to cover both insurance and upgrades to the premises, then that is going to have to be covered in the rent charged at some point, as landlords aren't generally charities which supply properties as loss making venues to other businesses.

Its interesting to hear everyone's views. Personally I have no interest in retail but I realise many do, i also think that many craft and "pop ups" are code words for toot! Though I understand that to many this is a leisure activity.
I'd like to see many cleared for open public spaces and some units turned over to light industrial usage, this somewhat fits in with the concept of craft stores but also should drive more employment. Office space is somewhat in over supply so I don't see that playing much of a part. I really like the idea of sport, leisure and entertainment fusion too.

Commercial/retail property typically has a life span of 30-40 years before demolished

I find the idea of buildings having a life span of 30 - 40 years quite depressing given there’s plenty of buildings built 400 years ago still going strong.
However many of the blocks built in the 60s and 70s are truly grim so maybe it’s good if they’re demolished.
I just hope what replaces them isn’t worse.