To think without retail we have to plan what to use our high streets for?

[omygoditsearly]

So retail has been in decline for years, covid has hastened the end of many large stores and changed habits. But we still have the physical infrastructure so what do we want to do with it?
Much retail space pave has been snapped up by property developers to build rabbit hutches but I can't see that working once a high street is gone. I suppose some could be bulldozed and consumed by urban sprawl but then many are older or protected so that would be difficult too. Does any one have any thoughts on how these spaces may be used in the future?

You need staff for schools! Where's the money coming from?

Not housing I hope!

@TooExtraImmatureCheddar

Last year Edinburgh developed a proposal to enhance the city centre by pedestrianising as far as possible, building a new access to Princes Street Gardens and a plaza bit overlooking it that could be filled with pavement cafes. They also wanted to widen pavements in places like Lothian Road/South Bridge by shutting lanes of traffic, again to increase the pavement cafe possibilities. Then there were ideas about planting trees, improving walking access (outdoor lifts for the steepest bits!) and running shuttle buses across it to reduce traffic. I really liked most of the ideas. That was pre-pandemic and I don't know if it ever got the green light.

There's also a lot of interest in the 20 minute neighbourhood idea - enhancing local areas so that you can work, live, shop and be entertained all within a 20 minute radius. Stops people having to travel into city centres for everything. The Granton Waterfront idea (in Edinburgh) is to have a coastal park, watersports, a college, art gallery/museum, cafes, retail, housing etc all in one place.

It wasn't a great idea, as it aimed mainly at the tourist market, as usual. While simulataneously announcing that they would license and tax Air BnBs and how there were too many Air Bnbs. But presumably not too many concrete, blank faced modern hotels that mysteriously receive planning permission. Edinburgh City Council's policies are nearly always based on increasing their own revenue, not improving things for the public. Princes Street is a disaster with mobile phone shops predominating and many empty retail units, with what is left of Jenners now to be lost too.

The Waterfront development at Leith near Granton is doing so badly that it some of the units are offered for free, because footfall is so low. It must be the cheapest place in the country to go if you want to have a near empty cinema to yourself (pre pandemic).

The main problem in Edinburgh is that the transport infrastructure is weak and a couple of tram lines going east to west doens't solve the north - south travel problem. Its difficult and expensive to get into, but the massive new housing estate building that is going on at its edges and in Midlothian has only exacerbated the situation. I used to live in Lasswade and it took me 3 hours per day, there and back, to travel to my office in the centre. Its probably worse now. If you have ever lived in any other more well organised country, you just think to yourself "at am I doing with my life?" My office has now moved out to South Gyle (I don't work there any more).

And yes, I have plenty of solutions but they won't be put into practice because C of E council like to waste money giving their friends consultation projects and then tinkering around the edges.

I'd like to see more community spaces and services for local people such as butchers, markets, smaller shops, cobblers, pharmacies.

Rents and rates a huge issue. Killing many small independents!
Surely after Covid and Lockdown, socialising will boom. Play areas, covered outdoor seating near pubs, bars and eateries. Out door entertainment. A festival feel in our town centres. Community hubs.
But ASBO needs looking st urgently. Some town centres are grim.

More independent shops would be nice. I dream of owning a little independent bookstore with a coffee bar, I'd host author talks and creative writing events, fun reading projects for kids, poetry nights etc. Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of Waterstones, not to mention so many people prefer ebooks these days. Would be nice though!

@SmokedDuck

I'm not convinced that an online retail sector is a great thing for cities or the people in them. If there is a plan to be made I think it should include reversing this trend as much as possible.

I agree. I live in a city with beautiful old arcades as well as a modern mall in the centre and would not want to see any of it go.

The office "blocks" in the town centre nearest to me have already been converted to student blocks.

The remaining properties are in the main two or three storied terraced and relatively narrow Victorian buildings.

The supermarkets went out of town years ago and there is one cinema and very little else. The remaining shops are increasingly charity/pound/vape and it's probably only the rents being on the lower side which is keeping the banks open. Locals demand cheap at the expense of quality.

The GP's/schools etc are already full so these would need building too.

Redevelopment costs would be high especially for social housing and the demand simply will never be there for the kind of housing which will achieve the price tags that will attract private developers.

It's a crying shame to see the town centre fall into such disrepair but some are going to need a hell of a lot of investment.

@ASatisfyingThump

More independent shops would be nice. I dream of owning a little independent bookstore with a coffee bar, I'd host author talks and creative writing events, fun reading projects for kids, poetry nights etc. Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of Waterstones, not to mention so many people prefer ebooks these days. Would be nice though!

Exactly. People always talk wistfully about little independent shops, but the reality is that most make hardly any money because they can't compete with Amazon, supermarkets, discount stores etc and don't take enough money to cover rent, rates, stock, utilities etc and provide an income for the owner.

Most high streets need overhaul.
Convert some of the fringe areas to housing. Personally love the idea of townhouses for families overlooking a square or nice tree lined streets.
Widen streets, create boulevards and add lots of trees so people can enjoy walking around.
Add parks/green spaces
Market area
Flexible retail units, smaller sized and low rates to encourage businesses in
Probably need focus on eating and cafes venues, ideally overlooking green spaces to build an atmosphere and night time economy
Supplement with what local area wants/needs whether that’s a cinema, music venues, spaces for art and history etc.

People also need to stop being snobby. I live in area where there are always jokes about Nando’s coming to the town and how awful it would be. I don’t get what’s wrong with Nando’s. If young people and families like it and it’s popular enough to get trade then let them have a unit.

Maybe they could all become culture hubs, I don't think they will die. Cafes, restaurants, small independent shops, covered markets, outdoor theatre, music along with the normal cinemas, concert venues etc. In conjunction with historic buildings and museums. No need for large shops. For me anyway.

@SmokedDuck

I'm not convinced that an online retail sector is a great thing for cities or the people in them. If there is a plan to be made I think it should include reversing this trend as much as possible.

But it's only a recent thing that city centres were dominated by retail. You only have to go back 20/30 years and there was a wide diversity of businesses, including GP surgeries, vets, warehouses, factories, print works, breweries, with lots of homes and lots of small shops dispersed around, as well as the department stores, chain stores, etc.

Retail pushed all that out and now bricks and mortar retail is is massive decline, it's leaving a vacuum. The OP is correct, we need to re-purpose large areas of town/city centres as High Street retail won't be coming back. For non-touristy towns, common sense would suggest homes to reduce commuting etc., but that also needs local employment, leisure, etc. For touristy towns, then they'll already have hotels, leisure, restaurants, theatres, etc.

What would be good would be for the big national "office based" firms, like banks, insurance companies, solicitors, accountants, etc to open regional offices in smaller cities and towns, i.e. reverse their centralisation into London, as they used to have smaller offices. Then their staff can work closer to home, and regional people would have a chance of getting decent jobs in national firms without relocating - it would facilitate home working, with a local "hub" for their office days, meetings, etc.

The city where I live used to have lots of people living there. The feeling was safe, people walked everywhere, it was a community. Now the vast majority has been snapped up for airbnb accommodation and more and more people are moving out of the city. It has become a perpetual drunken party hub

I think a lot def depends on the area you live in. There is nothing cultural or historical here. Going to shops is purely to get things/ go for a depressing walk. But I can get things online or a supermarket. I don't want to browse lots of little shops in my spare time. But then, that's because I have a lot of demands on my time. As a teenager, I would have wanted makeup and hippy shops and cafes selling cheap food. In my 20s, I used to shop on a sat afternoon for going out clothes and to kill some time. Now, I go to out of town place s if I need something, come home with nothing and buy it online anyway.

It def needs to be more focused on things to do, rather than things to buy.

@maddening

More people living in town would be great to keep centres alive, people that like to live amongst the theatres, entertainment and hospitality. And then shops that you see thriving still in any old /small town that service the local residents.

I’m recently retired and I would like to live in a small flat somewhere like this. Not much cleaning or gardening to do but lots of activities nearby.

Much of it will be converted to fancy yet poor quality flats. There will be plenty of "artisan" coffee shops and independent "eateries" for the owners of the flats to visit. How successful the scheme is depends on whether they can get rid of the homeless (and "homeless") and where they can be pushed out to.

@TheMoth

I think a lot def depends on the area you live in. There is nothing cultural or historical here. Going to shops is purely to get things/ go for a depressing walk. But I can get things online or a supermarket. I don't want to browse lots of little shops in my spare time. But then, that's because I have a lot of demands on my time. As a teenager, I would have wanted makeup and hippy shops and cafes selling cheap food. In my 20s, I used to shop on a sat afternoon for going out clothes and to kill some time. Now, I go to out of town place s if I need something, come home with nothing and buy it online anyway.

It def needs to be more focused on things to do, rather than things to buy.

There won't be a "one size fits all" approach - that's probably where High St retail went wrong with all High Streets looking the same, same shops, same fast food, etc.

A tourist/historical town centre will be very different to a University town centre, which will be very different to a seaside town centre, which will be very different to a run-down Northern town (without a Uni, without history, without tourism, without seaside!).

Just take a look at "town centres" in protected tourist areas, like Cornwall or the Lake District or Yorkshire Dales. They still have small independent shops, mostly because local planning has decided against granting permission to the large chain stores/fast food, etc. Many smaller towns/villages in those areas are destinations in their own right simply because of their independent cafes, gift shops, etc.

I think local councils will really be under pressure to undo the mistakes of the past and get rid of the large, heartless shopping centres.

Housing and entertainment spaces.

If you want a future of small independents in the high street etc then start now, spend your money locally and stop shopping on Amazon/elsewhere online. I'm not having a pop at anyone on this thread because I've no idea of your shopping habits but a lot of people I know lament our dying city centre but then start scoffing at how expensive the stuff, whatever it is, is in our independents. And yes I do point out that they can't have it both ways. If you want small businesses on the high street with decent products who pay fair wages and taxes the chances are it will cost more than buying it online.

Yeah Tentative3 - I don;t want Vape machines, sausage rolls, cheap shoes or second hand board games - which is all you'll find on our high street

Our council is moving our HE college into the town centre - with extra parking and a hotel - hoping this will boost the local economy - but our town has a massive historical aspect - including a castle - and they keep failing to capitalise on that - it's crazy

also we did have local artisan shops but they where repeatedly priced our by rent rises - add to that a HUGE retail park within walking distance of the high street - with 3 super markets, an M+S, Primark, Matalan, Next, H+M etc etc - it's just more and more empty

I wish the council would take back ownership of the high street and promote local business and history

A good start to attract shops would be to change business rates. At the moment, a "shop" pays a higher business rate per square foot than, say, a warehouse. High street shops pay an ever higher rate per square foot for being in prime locations. I'd go for a standard across the board "per square foot charge" for all types of premises. At the moment, warehouses are virtually the cheapest "per square foot" charge, so that's a massive benefit to online retailers as they could pay just a fraction of a High St department store on exactly the same sized premises. High Street is no longer "prime" so there's no justification for higher business rates for retail compared with warehouse premises. Online retailers need UK premises for their warehouses, so it would be a good way to extract more money from them that can't easily be avoided/evaded if their business rates were ramped up a few percent every year, to compensate for lower rates charged on retail premises.

The Stockton Park that is planned is right opposite all the dodgy pubs like The George. And the shopping centre being demolished includes an indoor market, I think.

Our high street is already stripped back to: hardware store, hairdressers, charity shops, coffee shop, pubs, takeaways, WHSmith and small supermarket. There’s very little else. It’s still a high street though, people still go there.

They need to offer experiences and social spaces, that can't happen online and also to be condensed I imagine. Parking needs to be free and plentiful, or better still they need improved transport links. Then change business rates to a figure based on turnover that will mean Amazon will pay more than a pottery cafe. Not all shops can, will or should survive, there is change afoot that will be sped up by COVID.

It will be mixed use development. Flats above shops/restaurants and office developments. One sustains the other. Less large department stores, more smaller retail units. Currently office blocks/retail units would need to be razed as most simply cannot be converted into residential. Commercial/retail property typically has a life span of 30-40 years before demolished. I'm a town planner btw, and these are certainly not new issues and have been planned for for years. Typically plans are based on predictions and look FWD 15-20 years ahead.