Renters won't leave the house I'm buying, they 'can't find anywhere suitable'.

[wirldsgonemad]

But thanks to covid, a section 21 means people have 6 months instead of 2 months to vacate and this means I get charged £4,250 extra in stamp duty, plus mortgage application fees and survey of £1k plus my life being on hold for 6 months.

They are fully aware of my position, they know I'm a single mother of 2 small children and they don't give two hoots that they're actions are costing me £5-6k and months of waiting.

God give me strength to get through these next few months without attacking them on a regular basis.

What would you do in my situation???

@Radio4Rocks

When a tenant refuses to leave when the tenancy is ended it may be legal but it isn't fair. The law is an ass in this case. And I think they are squatting. They shouldn't be there.

It's only squatting if someone enters a property without the consent of the owner or lawful occupier and with the intention of living there.

If the occupier had consent to be there initially, it's not squatting.

If the tenants have been told to leave at the end of the tenancy and they refuse it may be legal but it isn't fair to the owners who may need the money from the sale desperately.

@Radio4Rocks, if they needed the money desperately, do you think it was perhaps a bit of a dick move to let the property out after putting it on the market for sale? And that if you do something that daft, you can't complain that "it's not fair" if the tenants don't move out on demand?

Sheepies, I think this thread shows, for those who choose to read the whole thread and not just leap in with wrong assumptions, that being a landlord is complex.

There are clearly benefits available, such as a possible steady stream of income, and landlords also hope for capital appreciation. But to those who think it’s all easy money for no work, it’s more complex than that. There are lots of rules and regulations (rightly so) about safety, and tenants rights which need to be understood and stuck to. When it comes to selling, it is particularly complex and landlords need to appreciate when they get into landlording that selling isn’t like selling a private house when you just decide, get it valued and start marketing. They need to understand that exchange isn’t possible with tenants in situ (unless to another landlord who takes tenants on) and that working back from when a property is actually goi g to definitively be vacant (given it isn’t always possible to know exactly when a tenant will actually be gone physically from the property) is required, before they start marketing it. Most buyers (except landlords) won’t offer on a tenanted property unless they have extremely long time frames, and solicitors will always advise that exchange isn’t possible until a property is vacant and mortgages won’t complete until that point either. The law states when notice can be given and how long and all that has to be factored in.
Sheepies you are right, that if people want flexibility in selling, they shouldn’t be landlords, or stop letting a property before trying to market it. At the point of sale, they will also pay capital gains tax on the property.
All that said, clearly some people still want to be landlords although lots are deciding it’s too much trouble and exiting the market. For those who understand the law and are willing to follow it and be decent landlords, treating their tenants with respect and accepting that while there is a tenancy in place, it actually is their home, and who have enough money behind them to maintain the property and cope with void periods, and who don’t have ridiculous mortgages which make them cut corners to make ends meet, over the long term it can be a good business to be in. And I fully accept that being a tenant, particularly a long term renter is often not through choice and can be really difficult for tenants. They need and should have rights and the tenants in this thread haven’t done anything wrong at all. Yes, Landlords do need to be able to sell, but to work within the current law and accept the timescales and limits that requires which protect the tenants legal rights. They can’t and shouldn’t be able to charge people rent without any obligations to the tenant, and fair and legal notice is a key one of those.

@AnaisNun no, it's a family members home, they have been an in patient for 2 years now in a healthcare facility and are unlikely to ever come home, but we aren't selling until there's certainty around that. Income isn't important, if there was a scheme where someone on the housing list could be offered it, with the caveat that it would be potentially temp, but they would receive 6 months notice then great- would happily do that without rent being paid, but having fundamental repairs would be nice such as if the boiler goes. But nothing like that exists, so no, I'm not fussed on the rent being paid, i rightly wouldn't see any of it anyway; but it is an empty home in a place with none available for rent which seems a shame.

@RhiWrites

Your anger is misplaced. The sellers should have waited until the house was vacant to sell, but they wanted their rent and their sale proceeds.

I am in exactly this position. It’s not greed. I rented put my aunt’s house to pay for her care. I am now selling it to pay for her cate. The tenants have refused to leave. How is this my fault?

Well, it depends.

If your aunt went into care and the plan was to rent out her house to cover the costs, and that worked for a while (12 months plus), but now the situation has changed and you need to sell - fine. Life happens. Then you give tenants notice, and do not put the house on the market until they have moved out. (At which point there is a period where you’re not making any money but this is expected.)

If you did what the LL in OP’s example did, a d got tenants in short-term knowing you would be selling as soon as possible - not at all fine. Very poor behaviour.

I think also there’s some really outmoded thinking on this thread.

Yes and the attitude that tenants are somehow less because they are renting. It's weird.

I thought the tenants knew when they moved in that a sale was agreed. There's a lot of new build nearby and I thought they were renting short term whilst waiting for their house to be ready.

But you said upthread "The house was for sale, I looked, it didn't have tenants in but they had just signed to rent that week". So they took on the tenancy before any sale had been agreed.

If the vendor lied to you about the tenants' intentions - I'm assuming he did otherwise the stuff about waiting for their house to be ready would be a total fantasy on your part - then absolutely call his bluff and reduce your offer. Or, better still, pull out.

So you expect them to make themselves homeless because it's cheaper and more convenient for you?

Don't buy this house, clearly you have no compassion for the situation these people are in.

that being a landlord is complex.

Personally I would never be one, far too much stress. If you are going to do it you need to understand what you are required to do.

@RhiWrites

Your anger is misplaced. The sellers should have waited until the house was vacant to sell, but they wanted their rent and their sale proceeds.

I am in exactly this position. It’s not greed. I rented put my aunt’s house to pay for her care. I am now selling it to pay for her cate. The tenants have refused to leave. How is this my fault?

Has anyone said anything is your fault?

However, if you put the house on the market without waiting for the tenants to leave, then you will have to accept the fact that it will be difficult to sell - unless you find someone who is prepared to hang around indefinitely and potentially lose thousands, and who has a very dim solicitor, of course.

@Radio4Rocks

If the tenants have been told to leave at the end of the tenancy and they refuse it may be legal but it isn't fair to the owners who may need the money from the sale desperately. Living in someone else's property when they have told you to leave at the end of the tenancy absolutely is squatting and very unfair.

I cannot understand how so many think it is ok. If you borrow someone's car for an agreed time and an agreed amount you can't hold on to it afterwards. It's immoral.

The car comparison is just whataboutery. They are nothing alike.

Landlords know, or should know, the law when they take on tenants. Landlords (and I am) enjoy the protection that tenancy agreements bring and therefore you are bound by the responsibilities they bring.

The landlord in the OP is a particular brand of greedy fucker by putting tenants in places whilst in the middle of agreeing a sale.

I must say, I'd love to know what's so incredibly special about this house that it's worth waiting 18 months for and losing thousands of pounds on.

[quote Sheepies]@AnaisNun no, it's a family members home, they have been an in patient for 2 years now in a healthcare facility and are unlikely to ever come home, but we aren't selling until there's certainty around that. Income isn't important, if there was a scheme where someone on the housing list could be offered it, with the caveat that it would be potentially temp, but they would receive 6 months notice then great- would happily do that without rent being paid, but having fundamental repairs would be nice such as if the boiler goes. But nothing like that exists, so no, I'm not fussed on the rent being paid, i rightly wouldn't see any of it anyway; but it is an empty home in a place with none available for rent which seems a shame.[/quote]
Have you spoken to your local council and any local housing associations?

My flat is rented out in a scheme almost like this. You do have to commit to an initial 12 months, but the guaranteed income (even in a void period) is well worth it.

There will always be other houses. Pull out and find somewhere else or you could still be fighting a court battle in 9 months time.

Why anyone would be a landlord is absolutely mind boggling to me
As long as prices will continue to go up, even when there is no profit to make at the end of the month, it remains a safe investment.

Prices going down would be a disaster for social care. Yes it would mean more property on the market and more current renters able to get on the ladder, but these are not usually the people who rely on social housing when their lease come to an end.

At the moment, the government is doing everything to push renters on to them to reduce the pressure onto social housing. Extending notice whilst the court process is worse and longer than ever. Not being able to evict unless selling or moving out, allowing tenants to have as many pets as they wish etc...

Problem is, with the increase in taxation whilst restricting even more the right to pick tenants, hence increasing the financial risk on the landlords, rental sales will increase leaving more tenants unable to buy and more reliant on social housing. It is all only delaying the inevitable.

[quote Sheepies]@AnaisNun no, it's a family members home, they have been an in patient for 2 years now in a healthcare facility and are unlikely to ever come home, but we aren't selling until there's certainty around that. Income isn't important, if there was a scheme where someone on the housing list could be offered it, with the caveat that it would be potentially temp, but they would receive 6 months notice then great- would happily do that without rent being paid, but having fundamental repairs would be nice such as if the boiler goes. But nothing like that exists, so no, I'm not fussed on the rent being paid, i rightly wouldn't see any of it anyway; but it is an empty home in a place with none available for rent which seems a shame.[/quote]
Some councils operate schemes along the lines you mention, @Sheepies, but with rent paid.

They lease properties from owners and use them for temp accommodation for homeless families. They generally undertake to return the property in the condition they got it in, and rent is guaranteed, even if the property is empty between tenants.

There are 2 downsides though: the minimum term most councils are interested in is usually 3 years, so it means no sale during that period, and rents are usually capped at the LHA rate, ie an average of the bottom 30% of private rents in the area. Nevertheless, this is sufficiently attractive for investors to buy properties, refurb them, and lease them to councils.

Morning OP - just another thought, if you are set on waiting it out for this house I would check that the S21 has been issued correctly. You may get lucky and the tenants may move out of their own accord when they find somewhere but just in case they don't the S21 becomes crucial.

It sounds like the landlord/vendor was happy to try to avoid due process in December by giving 2 months verbal notice rather than the 6 months written notice that was legally required. I would therefore want to be certain that he hasn't avoided any other due process that will make the S21 useless. For example he must have served a gas safe certificate on his tenants, issued them with the government's 'How to Rent' guide, given them the property EPC and legally protected any deposit they have given him within 30 days and served them with the required certificate and prescribed information. If he has failed to do any of those things then the S21 will be thrown out in court in and will need to be served again, with another 6 months notice (unless that changes in the meantime).

If I were you I would be asking my solicitor to ask the vendor for evidence/confirmation that the S21 has been issued correctly and legally and will be valid if it needs to be relied upon. If not then you could possibly be in for a very long wait i.e. years not months.

@JustLyra yes, unfortunately they don't offer anything similar (although it is something a neighbouring authority do from what I have read which is frustrating). Deviating from the thread I know, and I agree that the LL in the OP is unfair and cruel to the tenants to take them on knowing full well he is actively selling; but it is sad to see that the vast majority assume landlords are all money grabbing deviants without souls (not you btw, just in general on here). If there were some schemes that were transparent to tenants, fair to landlords (if renting for reasons other than simply lining pockets for extra cash) in that they don't have to be dragged to court if they have already given a lot of notice, it would be better all round. As it is, probably a fair few in a similar position to mine can't be facing the system as it is, and tenants lose out too.

It's all through an EA

It can't be, OP; like so much else this doesn't make sense since someone has to oversee the legal practicalities

Unless they've got some idiot in a back office who fancies themselves a "conveyancer" and actually has no concern beyond the estate agents getting their fee??

@bigdecisionstomake, under a judgment from Judge Luba, if a GSC wasn't in place at the start of a tenancy, then the tenancy is NOT an AST but defaults to being a secure tenancy.

Unless this precedent has been superceded, any LL not getting this stuff right has effectively shafted themselves.

I don't know if the same applies to "How to rent" and the EPC, they weren't required when I moved from homeless prevention to welfare rights, so my knowledge isn't up to date on that point.

@CakeRequired refusing to leave doesn't mean they aren't good people! They are acting within the law and standing up for themselves. I would do exactly the same especially if a landlord hadn't told me they were planning to sell, which sounds likely here . I would wait to move until I was ready and found the right place . S21s are unlikely to be enforced through the courts for a long time, the backlog is immense. They have no need to rush. And perhaps they're not desperate to move during covid, and perhaps they had thought this might be a long term home.

The vendor is the one in the wrong here. Plus the OP for offering on a tenanted property tbh without realising it is someone's home and they have legal rights - which exist for good reasons.

Can you complete the sale and you become the LL and collect the rent?

Not something I'd recommend, TBH - it's clear OP has little proper understanding of how these things work, and there's nothing wrong with that since it's a pretty complicated area and nobody can be a specialist in everything

However if that's the case, taking on a LL role could easily prove to be a poisoned chalice

As the tenants signed a 6 month contract on a house which was for sale, they can hardly complain about having to leave at the end of that time. However this should all have been dealt with by the agent, solicitor and vendor, who should have been ready to 'evict' as soon as the contract was up. Sound like the tenants are peeved although they've had 6 months to find another place, and will stay until legally forced out.

As the tenants signed a 6 month contract on a house which was for sale, they can hardly complain about having to leave at the end of that time

And what if they weren't aware? It hardly sounds like the LL/vendor has acted transparently.

@ginghamstarfish

As the tenants signed a 6 month contract on a house which was for sale, they can hardly complain about having to leave at the end of that time. However this should all have been dealt with by the agent, solicitor and vendor, who should have been ready to 'evict' as soon as the contract was up. Sound like the tenants are peeved although they've had 6 months to find another place, and will stay until legally forced out.

That assumes they weren’t given false promises by the LL about the property coming off the market.