Or can abusers change?

[AubergineDream]

I can't help thinking that abusers can never change. This is why my children do not have a relationship with their Dad (who is abusive). However, I know a couple of couples who claim that one of them used to be abusive and now isn't.
AIBU to think that abusers can't change and these people are just pretending? Or is everyone capable of change and redemption?

I think most don't change, whether they could or not is hard to know as there is not much investment in stopping perpetrators of abuse.
Many victims don't realise they are victims, their children copy the victim or abuser behaviour, it becomes ingrained in families.

Some victims find the insight and strength to get the abuser out of their life, the abuser then just finds their next victim. It's pretty depressing really. More needs to be done to stop the cycle.

In couples where they say it has stopped I wouldn't believe it.

I think it really does depend on the type of abuse, and the reason.

I have absolutely no doubt that Dh had the potential to be an emotionally abusive twat. In fact, I sort of know an ex-gf of his and she is too discreet to say anything but I've had hints.

Why? Because DH has a bit of a temper. He can be very volatile and a bit scary. When he was growing up, his parents did not make any attempt to stamp this out but rather just "rode it out". They also often adapted behaviour, activities etc to accommodate /pre-empt DH's behaviour.

As a result, not only did he think this was totally normal, he was completely and totally oblivious to the affect this could have on other people. And it wasn't just at home. I have heard of him having huge blow ups with friends and even in a work situation. Where he would then play the victim.

DH is ALSO a very kind, loving man who is very intelligent.

So when this behaviour really showed itself after we were living together, at first, I found myself slipping into this mode where I'd think, "Oh, it's just a once off." Then that wasn't the case. So then I thought, "Oh, I'll just ignore it" except that only worked if the issue was something I didn't really care about. etc etc.

And then one day, he lost it over something so ridiculous and stupid AND then behaved so appallingly badly and dangerously that I told him we were over if he didn't deal with it. When he calmed down, he sought therapy. And things really did change. But, and this is essential, he changed because he 1. accepted that his behaviour was not okay and 2. he really really wanted to stop.

I generally believe that nobody should be written off, but at the same time have had to write off my ex partner to protect me and my children. It's difficult to believe in both things, but I guess he has never accepted his behaviour is wrong or wanted to change. That's the difference

I see a lot of abusive relationships in my work and I do think some can change BUT they need to recognise what their behaviour is etc and I’ve come across 2 men who were able to do that in the last 7 years of my work as most men will deny what they are. I also don’t know that a man can change while still in the relationship that was abusive. I think there’s more chance if the man comes out of the relationship, works on himself etc and gets into a new completely different relationship with a different dynamic

Yeah I think if that lines been crossed and trust broken, how can you go back? But then I have these examples, with no abuse for many years now and it makes me question that view point?

Maybe it's because it was secondary to alcoholism or mental health, it wasn't really abuse in the classic sense so their core beliefs didn't need to change, when they solved their drinking or got help for their mental health the abusive behaviour stopped

Whereas people like my ex fundamentally believe women are just there to serve a mans needs, and so that is harder to change

Bumping for the evening crowd

I think it all depends on how the abuse came about. If it's through mental illness, or drugs etc. Then I think it can be worked on and overcome.
If its ingrained into their personality, then I dont think they will change.

I think if the abuse is a set of behaviours that have developed in the absence of expectations to behave better or as mal-adapted coping mechanisms for a tough start in life, and accompanied by lack of self awareness then the abuser is redeemable if the light dawn's and they actively reject the things they do and want to test their loved ones better.
But if say these are rare, if you have got to be an adult and behave abusively it is more often a choice that suits and therefore never going to change.

I think they can yes

MsMarch

He hasn't changed and IS an active, fully formed abusive person. You said it yourself, his family (and possibly friends) have spent a lifetime walking on eggshells appeasing him, to avoid being abused worse than they would otherwise be.

You may not be appeasing him, but you're already having to actively resist him with warnings and I can guarantee that he will already be adapting his methods of control and punishment to you personally. It's what they do.

@PicsInRed

MsMarch

He hasn't changed and IS an active, fully formed abusive person. You said it yourself, his family (and possibly friends) have spent a lifetime walking on eggshells appeasing him, to avoid being abused worse than they would otherwise be.

You may not be appeasing him, but you're already having to actively resist him with warnings and I can guarantee that he will already be adapting his methods of control and punishment to you personally. It's what they do.

DH is by no means perfect, I assure you. But nope, I am not being controlled by him in any way whatsoever. Never mind anything else, his anger largely played out as a result of having a very black and white view of the world, with little nuance (obviously, I at least partially blame his parents and upbringing for this! ) and with age and maturity, this is definitely no longer the case.

But I stand by my earlier comment that you have to WANT to change and believe any behaviour is not okay. That goes across the board for anyone who has a behaviour that is a problem - not just abusive behaviours. It took me a very long time to stop smoking and I'm still struggling with it. What helps me to stay smoke free is the fact that I absolutely know it is bad combined with a desperate desire not to smoke. I tried to stop many times previously because I "should" and it never stuck. Now that it's something I really want, I'm doing it.

On the above argument though, it's true, I'll probably always be a smoker at heart and DH will probably always have some anger issues. But I'll keep working on it and so will he. He has tools in place etc.

Abusive people can and do change, it is just a rare occurrence because most abusers tend to also have victim complexes where they are the victim of their own narrative. Nothing they do is their fault. It’s all “look at what you made me do” “why didn’t you notice I was upset?” Etc.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Abusive people can and do change, it is just a rare occurrence because most abusers tend to also have victim complexes where they are the victim of their own narrative. Nothing they do is their fault. It’s all “look at what you made me do” “why didn’t you notice I was upset?” Etc.

Yes, absolutely. This x1000. DH's childhood was, on the surface, good, but there were some serious issues there. HIs brother absolutely 100% has the victim mentality and is abusive. SIL escaped that for herself.... only to marry a man who has all this going on so she's just perpetuating the way she was brought up.

Ooh yes the victim mentality has a lot to answer for. Living anywhere in the drama triangle is so shit.

These days I believe in radical responsibility. Even if it's not your fault it's your responsibility. No blame, shame, self pity. Straight out of that horrible drama triangle.

I used to say things like "I shouted because you broke my things" followed by "I'm sorry I shouted but you shouldn't have broken my things" now I say, "you broke my thing, and I shouted" followed by "I shouldn't have shouted and you shouldn't have broken my things, how can we move past this?" Because it's easy to get caught up in the language and then that perpetuates the blame/reaction issue. Taking responsibility definitely has to be the first step.

A big thing is taking responsibility for your own feelings too. So instead of "I'm angry with you" just "I am feeling very angry." That's what I teach my kids, own your feelings. They don't belong to the other person.

My ex thought he was a calm reasonable man, who other people antagonised into being abusive. He was a victim of all these people who just wound him up. They were responsible for his anger.

I often wonder where the line is between being with an abuser and a toxic relationship. Or is it a toxic relationship because you're with an abuser?

I was in a toxic relationship in my late teens and Looking back he was definitely abusive. The second time I left an abusive relationship and tried to tell me it was a 'toxic relationship' I said that it wasn't toxic, he was abusive. It wasn't equal in Any way. I just sometimes fought back (fought for my life more like).

95% plus of the time, no.

A poster on here who worked with abusive men (probation service, I think) did make me re-think the other 5%. She said that in her experience the ones who sometimes managed to change were the ones with a blanket anger-management problem (often from dysfunctional childhoods). If they were prone to losing it with everyone - spouse, boss, colleagues, randoms down the pub, blokes on the football terrace - and (critical extra point, because not everyone was able to show the self-awareness to realise their behaviour was wrong, or learn the impulse control to do something about it) you could get through to them that this was not normal and that they could learn to control their impulses - then they might turn things round.

But the bloke who's perfect round his colleagues, boss, mates down the pub, then goes home and beats the shit out of his partner? He is choosing, in cold blood, to do this, and he's unreformable.

Both of those men were older than me, considerably bigger than me, and had done the love bombing/ gas lighting etc before becoming physically violent.

But I didn't fit the narrative of a victim either. I've never been a very good victim!

@CaraDuneRedux

Yes I think that is an important distinction really. These aren't angry men who have no control over their behaviour and 'lose it in a moment of madness.'
There is an intentionality, they are in control.

I wonder if it's the same for female violence against men though? Where it's not rooted in societal misogyny?

@Happycat1212

I think they can yes

The tactics change they don’t and eventually it can take months but often even hears the woman finds out the previous ex wasn’t crazy or lying. But you keep telling yourself they can.

I actually think anyone is capable of change so I disagree, I think it’s rare but I don’t think it’s impossible or doesn’t happen, it’s usually with someone else though rather than in the same relationship but I don’t like writing people off completely, it’s like saying can a criminal change well yes of course they can and many people go on to not commit a crime again. Any one is capable of change.