Or can abusers change?

[AubergineDream]

I can't help thinking that abusers can never change. This is why my children do not have a relationship with their Dad (who is abusive). However, I know a couple of couples who claim that one of them used to be abusive and now isn't.
AIBU to think that abusers can't change and these people are just pretending? Or is everyone capable of change and redemption?

I think so, depends on several factors.
Personality types being one. Some couples bring out the worse in each other; separate and are fine apart or in other relationships.
Stress and coping, some stressors are temporary financial for instance.
Better coping skills can be learned etc.
Really only applicable to verbal abuse, some forms of physical or threatening behavior.
But I’d not recommend someone stay in a toxic relationship.

Where I struggle with the taking responsibility bit is that my mother was physically and emotionally abusive towards me and my sibling, kicking, strangling, punching, swearing, spitting, hitting, swearing etc, whenever she got pissed off at us. But both my mother and sister believe that if I hadn't been so difficult (talking back, trying to defend myself when I was being shouted at/hit, and also by just being a normal stroppy child/teenager) then my mother wouldn't have reacted the way she did. I used to think the way I grew up was normal and it took me a long time and a fair amount of therapy to realise it wasn't. My sister worships the ground my mother walks on and has completely bought into her narrative of poor single mother with difficult children. My sister doesn't believe my mother was abusive. She has completely normalised and minimised it and is very angry with me for daring to give the beast a name. She believes I was the more difficult one (I was more rebellious and got more beatings) and when I mention my mother should be taking responsibility for her actions she flings it right back into my face, retorting that I should take responsibility for being a difficult child. And that I was abusive towards our mother (and my sister, because we would swear at each other and fight with each other). It confuses the hell out of me. I only hit my mother once, when I was 17, to make it stop. The physical abuse stopped but not the foul language. My sister still believes children should be beaten up if they are naughty. She believes in shouting, swearing, humiliation, bullying etc, claiming it never did her any harm. I'm no contact with both of them (another thing my sister sees as proof that I'm the common denominator, the black sheep) and try to treat people the way I wish to be treated. But I still wonder whether they are both right and I am the one who didn't take responsibility for being a difficult child, instead playing the victim. It doesn't help that there were many good moments. Many kind things my mother did. But many more horrible things. It was always in a fit of anger. She was usually on when not angry. Though I walked on eggshells as the slightest thing would set her off. But then she WAS a struggling single mother so isn't she allowed mistakes? I just don't know. My life is better without them in it but maybe I am the evil one, the abuser.

*Ok not on

@MonroeNotManson

Where I struggle with the taking responsibility bit is that my mother was physically and emotionally abusive towards me and my sibling, kicking, strangling, punching, swearing, spitting, hitting, swearing etc, whenever she got pissed off at us. But both my mother and sister believe that if I hadn't been so difficult (talking back, trying to defend myself when I was being shouted at/hit, and also by just being a normal stroppy child/teenager) then my mother wouldn't have reacted the way she did. I used to think the way I grew up was normal and it took me a long time and a fair amount of therapy to realise it wasn't. My sister worships the ground my mother walks on and has completely bought into her narrative of poor single mother with difficult children. My sister doesn't believe my mother was abusive. She has completely normalised and minimised it and is very angry with me for daring to give the beast a name. She believes I was the more difficult one (I was more rebellious and got more beatings) and when I mention my mother should be taking responsibility for her actions she flings it right back into my face, retorting that I should take responsibility for being a difficult child. And that I was abusive towards our mother (and my sister, because we would swear at each other and fight with each other). It confuses the hell out of me. I only hit my mother once, when I was 17, to make it stop. The physical abuse stopped but not the foul language. My sister still believes children should be beaten up if they are naughty. She believes in shouting, swearing, humiliation, bullying etc, claiming it never did her any harm. I'm no contact with both of them (another thing my sister sees as proof that I'm the common denominator, the black sheep) and try to treat people the way I wish to be treated. But I still wonder whether they are both right and I am the one who didn't take responsibility for being a difficult child, instead playing the victim. It doesn't help that there were many good moments. Many kind things my mother did. But many more horrible things. It was always in a fit of anger. She was usually on when not angry. Though I walked on eggshells as the slightest thing would set her off. But then she WAS a struggling single mother so isn't she allowed mistakes? I just don't know. My life is better without them in it but maybe I am the evil one, the abuser.

You are not responsible. Single or otherwise, your mother was an adult and you were a child. She was in a position of responsibility. She was meant to care for and nurture you. She absolutely should be taking responsibility. Instead, she and your sister continue to justify and minimise your mothers actions, perpetuating that abuse cycle on to anyone your sister now comes into contact with. On the other hand, you have taken responsibility for your own behaviour by not using your crappy childhood experiences as an excuse to abuse others. Of course you have to be NC with somebody who still cannot accept responsibility after all these years. Because taking responsibility is point zero. That's where someone can even begin to apologise, rehabilitate or redeem themselves

I am NC with one of my parents for the same reason.

@ASandwichNamedKevin

I think most don't change, whether they could or not is hard to know as there is not much investment in stopping perpetrators of abuse. Many victims don't realise they are victims, their children copy the victim or abuser behaviour, it becomes ingrained in families.

Some victims find the insight and strength to get the abuser out of their life, the abuser then just finds their next victim. It's pretty depressing really. More needs to be done to stop the cycle.

In couples where they say it has stopped I wouldn't believe it.

I just think they just change tactics ! Of course one can change but if they have a history of it with just one partner and they are willing to admit they need help and their behaviour is wrong but it’s very very rare. My friend was convinced her husband was only like that with his ex, ex cheated on him and he pushed her and they had a toxic relationship and all that turns out after marrying Prince Charming he was extremely jealous and volatile. He was fine for about 5 -6 year’s apparently but couple of red flags she said in the the beginning with jealousy and a couple of things she said at the start which would set a little alarm bell off but ignored it as apparently he kept telling her she was the one and he has calmed down so much and it was ex wife who pushed his buttons and is the one. Not only that but other family members kept low contact and even cut him off but again he was the victim. Narcs are the best at this one! Convincing some one they were always the victim and because they are so charming but the mask usually slips off and the older they are less likely to change as well. I would Be wary if any man who admitted they were abusers and changed.

Thank you. It's hard sometimes isn't it. It all sounds totally reasonable and ok in your head one moment and the next you're trying to justify it to yourself and others who judge you and question your reasons. It sounds so feeble when I try to explain it out loud to others. 'I did it to protect my sanity' etc. I just sound like a whiny little child to my own ears.

@MonroeNotManson

Thank you. It's hard sometimes isn't it. It all sounds totally reasonable and ok in your head one moment and the next you're trying to justify it to yourself and others who judge you and question your reasons. It sounds so feeble when I try to explain it out loud to others. 'I did it to protect my sanity' etc. I just sound like a whiny little child to my own ears.

Yes I totally sympathise with that.

I think it's rare for an abuser to change, but I do also think it depends on the reason why the person is abusive. I'd be highly skeptical though.

I do. But it's so individual. DH turned out to have autism and the abuse only happened once in the middle of an almighty meltdown. Only we didn't know they were meltdowns then. It didn't lessen what I went through or the kids. But it happened once. It was a red line and I made it very clear that without shed loads of professional intervention we were all going on without him. He agreed and it took a year of intense therapy both couples and individual. The entire time I wasn't sure if we'd make it and I had to hold my resolve to leave if it didn't. There were lots of controlling tendencies that led up to the main event but were easily dismissed until the whole thing came together. I imagine it's quite rare for a marriage to stay in tact. The whole thing needs to be reinvested ultimately. And neither of you are the same person on the other side.

@AubergineDream

I used to say things like "I shouted because you broke my things" followed by "I'm sorry I shouted but you shouldn't have broken my things" now I say, "you broke my thing, and I shouted" followed by "I shouldn't have shouted and you shouldn't have broken my things, how can we move past this?" Because it's easy to get caught up in the language and then that perpetuates the blame/reaction issue. Taking responsibility definitely has to be the first step.

This is great

@SchoonerP

I do. But it's so individual. DH turned out to have autism and the abuse only happened once in the middle of an almighty meltdown. Only we didn't know they were meltdowns then. It didn't lessen what I went through or the kids. But it happened once. It was a red line and I made it very clear that without shed loads of professional intervention we were all going on without him. He agreed and it took a year of intense therapy both couples and individual. The entire time I wasn't sure if we'd make it and I had to hold my resolve to leave if it didn't. There were lots of controlling tendencies that led up to the main event but were easily dismissed until the whole thing came together. I imagine it's quite rare for a marriage to stay in tact. The whole thing needs to be reinvested ultimately. And neither of you are the same person on the other side.

Wow! I admire both of you for getting through that and building a new future. That must have taken a lot!