AIBu to take my dog for a walk when she’s in heat?

[berryfull]

Obviously on the lead, we’ll controlled. Obviously trying to avoid busy dog places where possible. But a walk a couple of times a day.

I’ve had several owners of entire make dogs give me a mouthful this week, when they’ve had to come and forceably remove their intact off lead dog from following me. Even went so far tonight that the dog that was following us had no owner anywhere visible, so I had to phone them from the number on the collar. When they arrived to get the dog (having delayed me 20 mins or so) they decided to tell me off !!

Flabbergasted! Surely if you have an entire make dog, then you should be keeping it in the lead or under supervision. Why should my dog get no excersize ? I’m keeping my dog under control. Why should I have to lock her away while male dogs roam free?

Dog patriarchy anyone?

@truthisalie there are a lot more benefits to spaying than castration. Castration needs to be weighed up carefully as it can cause health problems if done at the wrong time. It can also make anxious or nervous behaviour worse.
Also to be shown in breed classes males must be entire.

Not as cut and dry as all should be neutered. If you don’t want to neuter your bitch then don’t (personally I would!) but you need to take responsibility for that decision.

@truthisalie

If male dogs follow the bitch does it mean the males haven't been castrated?

If they haven't been catsrated then why it is expected for the female dogs to be sprayed?

Neutered dogs can also follow females.

Whether or not to neuter/spay any dog is personal decision and should be based on the dog you have in the environment you have it, and your own willingness or capability to prevent unwanted puppies vs any risks of medical or behavioural consequence.

However, on balance there are more 'cons' with neutering a male dog that spaying a female one - where the decison tends to be a bit clearer and simpler for those involved.

Cons for neutering males dogs involved increased risks of a number of cancers as well as behavioural risks associated with reduced testosterone levels in fearful or under confident dogs. There are some pros too - but for some dogs they do not outweigh the cons.

The OP is tiring of responsible dog owners 'rudeness'
Responsible dog owners are aware of the situations you mention here.
If or when the OP ever encounters an experienced stud dog whilst out exercising her bitches feminine rights. She might even get a few who think her coat pocket is an option as she's shooing.
The OP isn't interested in responsible dog ownership though sadly

OP is going to find out for herself, very shortly, exactly why taking an in season bitch to the beach is a bad idea. Let her get on with it. She obviously knows best 🤷🏻‍♀️😂

@truthisalie

If male dogs follow the bitch does it mean the males haven't been castrated?

If they haven't been catsrated then why it is expected for the female dogs to be sprayed?

Not necessarily - castrated dogs may still be interested in principle, but obviously they won't be able to get the bitch pregnant.

There are good reasons (usually behavioural ones) for choosing not to castrate (e.g. if you have a very nervous dog and don't want it to get even more nervous and submissive).

Also, it's one of those "nature isn't fair, sorry!" situations. It's the owner of the bitch who's going to have the expense of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, so as the owner of a bitch, you have to be prepared to be extra-careful. (I say that as the owner of a bitch!)

While I was reading up on the "when to spay" decision, I came across a fascinating article (a couple of American vets discussing pros and cons of spaying before the bitch's first season) in which they discussed cross-cultural attitudes. In Norway, it's considered an animal welfare issue - you do not put any dog through any surgery without medical reason, so castration/spaying is viewed the same way we'd view de-clawing a cat, as unecessary surgery. But at the same time they have next-to-no problem with strays and unwanted pregnancies - because there's an ingrained cultural attitude of being a responsible dog owner. (And also a massively lower population density - I would imagine your average Norwegian dog meets far fewer other dogs on its daily walk than mine does in an incredibly densely populated British city).

As always with these issues, the problem is not the dogs doing what comes naturally to them, it's crap owners who don't take steps to intervene/minimise the problem.

Thanks for explaining regarding neutering/spraying etc. I don't own a dog so that's why asking. It's tricky for them.
You obviously want your pet to be healthy.

@truthisalie

If male dogs follow the bitch does it mean the males haven't been castrated?

If they haven't been catsrated then why it is expected for the female dogs to be sprayed?

No, even neutered dogs can follow a bitch in heat.

There are health benefits to spaying a bitch. For some male dogs, it is not recommended to neuter them as it can lead to behaviour problems. This is only for some dogs but is a consideration that needs to be taken on a dog by dog basis.

@truthisalie

If male dogs follow the bitch does it mean the males haven't been castrated?

If they haven't been catsrated then why it is expected for the female dogs to be sprayed?

Not necessarily. Almost all dogs - and that includes many castrated males and many bitches, spayed and unspayed, may show interest in a bitch in heat.

And some dogs, like some people, have a stronger sex drive than others.

I had a staffie who, two years after his neutering, could still tie with a bitch (he was neutered as an adult, at nearly 4). It gave a beagle owner a terrible shock, I can tell you!

"She's in heat, she's in heat!

"Don't worry - he's a eunuch."

"Well he doesn't look like a eunuch to me!"

All of my dogs have lifted their legs, too, although I was told that a neutered dog will squat like a bitch to pee. It hasn't been my experience.

(I also have a spayed bitch who lifts her leg to pee - and properly lifts it, high, not just a little "don't want to widdle on my paw" lift. She overmarks where our male dog lifts his leg)

I also have a spayed bitch who lifts her leg to pee - and properly lifts it, high, not just a little "don't want to widdle on my paw" lift. She overmarks where our male dog lifts his leg

Useless fact: this is more likely in females that were positioned between two male puppies, in the womb. They are exposed to more testosterone through proximity and so tend to display more male type behaviours as adults

Do you not realise how far away a male dog can be that can still smell your female?! There’s no need to be walking her a couple times a day, once maybe early in the morning or in the evening when it’s less busy. You can’t get pissed at people for being a little annoyed at you.

In Norway, it's considered an animal welfare issue - you do not put any dog through any surgery without medical reason, so castration/spaying is viewed the same way we'd view de-clawing a cat, as unecessary surgery. But at the same time they have next-to-no problem with strays and unwanted pregnancies - because there's an ingrained cultural attitude of being a responsible dog owner.

There is much stricter breeding and selling legislation, too, and heavy fines are imposed to enforce it. I think that the breeder is also financially responsible for any health issues the pups develop (attributable to breeding) in their first three years of life. Means people don't breed willy-nilly - and a bloody good thing, too!

@SirSniffsAlot

I also have a spayed bitch who lifts her leg to pee - and properly lifts it, high, not just a little "don't want to widdle on my paw" lift. She overmarks where our male dog lifts his leg

Useless fact: this is more likely in females that were positioned between two male puppies, in the womb. They are exposed to more testosterone through proximity and so tend to display more male type behaviours as adults

That's interesting Sniffs. I wonder how they find these things out?

It's highly likely that it was so, as she was from a litter of 11, and 8 were dogs - only 3 bitches.

YANBU. Even dogs have fucking male entitlement.

My I have a 6 yr old spayed bitch, she was spayed after her first season.

Whilst she was in season, I wouldn't have dreamt of taking her out or leaving her unattended in the back garden. I was my choice to have a dog in the first place and my choice to choose a bitch, therefore it's also my choice and responsibility to keep her safe.

And if that meant not walking her for 3 weeks, which is what I did, then so be it. There are many other ways to burn off excess energy and keep them busy and occupied.

All of my dogs have lifted their legs, too, although I was told that a neutered dog will squat like a bitch to pee. It hasn't been my experience.

I was told this depends on the age at which they're castrated. Post puberty, once they've started to cock a leg, they continue to do so.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

To all those saying why isn't she spayed, it's her first season and it's recommended to wait at least one season before spaying to allow them to mature. Not according to the Royal Veterinary College!

The general consensus (scientifically based) is to spay at 6 months or 3/4 months after first seasaon. There are pros and cons to both.

In that case, the RVC need to cascade that information down to vets. Non-members of the RVC ie common or garden pet owners tend to go by the advice given by vets and are not likely to check every bit of vet advice with them and then challenge their vet.

@SchadenfreudePersonified - It's called prenatal testosterone transfer and occurs in many different multi-young animals - just in case you fancy looking up some bedtime reading to help you drift off

My dog is an elderly, male rescue and we've only had him just over a year. He cannot be let off lead on the beach or in the park because he's deaf and cannot now be recall trained

Desf dogs can be recall trained if you hunt down the right trainer (still using kind methods). It's done slightly differently and can take a little longer but can be done. Let me know if you want me to point you in the direction of any good training organisations who could help.

@truthisalie

Thanks for explaining regarding neutering/spraying etc. I don't own a dog so that's why asking. It's tricky for them. You obviously want your pet to be healthy.

It’s great to ask. We didn’t have a clue about the issues around neutering when we took our 6month old male to the vet to ask about castrating. They actively discourage it until at least 2 as before then it can cause physical health issues such as bones not growing correctly, to emotional / behavioural issues (anxiety, aggression etc). Of course when we researched it it completely made sense but I think it’s engrained that 6months is the time to neuter .. sadly many rescues still do this.

Useless fact: this is more likely in females that were positioned between two male puppies, in the womb. They are exposed to more testosterone through proximity and so tend to display more male type behaviours as adults

Ah, brilliant fact for the day. Thank you. @SirSniffsAlot

We do pavement walks when my dog is in season. That way we don't come across any other male dogs off lead. Its not their fault they're after your girl, it's their natural instinct. It's probably not the best idea to be walking her somewhere other dogs will be off lead when she's in season. It's one of the drawbacks of having an un spayed bitch.

[quote yearinyearout]@CaraDuneRedux have you checked to see if there's any secure exercise fields near you? We have two in our area and they charge about a fiver, they were a godsend when ours were in season. Didn't use them daily but handy for when they're going stir crazy! [/quote]
Ooh! Thank you. Brilliant idea - I will definitely look into this.

dogparksnearme.co.uk/

[quote SirSniffsAlot]@SchadenfreudePersonified - It's called prenatal testosterone transfer and occurs in many different multi-young animals - just in case you fancy looking up some bedtime reading to help you drift off [/quote]
Sounds too exciting to read at bedtime - I would become engrossed and not realise how long I'd been reading until dawn's rosy fingers caught my attention

@smoothchange

It’s her first season.

Why though? Why has she not been spayed?

Because it can cause long term health problems spaying bitches before the first season. Things like hip problems and osteoporosis.

Lots of vets think that no dog should be neutered before 18 months to allow the hormones to do their thing in terms of natural development and health. It shouldn't be an issue if owners (of male and female dogs) take appropriate actions.

@berryfull

I have her on the lead, the beach is huge and quiet when we go. We avoid other dogs. This is all entirely reasonable! Locking her up for weeks in order that male entire dogs can roam uncontrolled is mental !

Yes it would be 'mental'. As is taking her to a beach where you absolutely know that dogs will, quite reasonably, be off leash.

Do you want local people to guess what time you'll take your dog to the beach so that they can hopefully avoid owners who think that they have more of a right to that beach than they do with their in-season dog? Neutered dogs will also respond to a bitch in heat, surely you know this?

Obviously you've never owned a dog before, so may not be aware, but you do need to find these things out, it's all part of being a responsible dog owner. Pavement only walks for the weeks that she is in season. It's a pain, but assuming you are having her spayed, you won't need to do it again. You're being really unfair on your own dog here.