To feel like the character of Jill in It's A Sin was really underdeveloped? ***Spoiler alert - added by MNHQ***

[Draineddraineddrained]

Just binged this show with DP over last couple of evenings and LOVED it (heartbreaking though it was) - but this just got to me...

I mean I don't find it unrealistic that a (presumably?) straight girl would be best friends with a group of gay men and become a huge advocate for them and an AIDS activist - my mum did similar back in the 80s, and I wish like anything she was still alive because she would have thought this show was amazing.

But she was also a full human being with her own life, relationships (mostly dire), failings and priorities - whereas Jill just seems like a sort of motherly cipher, there to hold everyone else together without any normal human feelings beyond extreme empathy and compassion. She feels like a fantasy of what a woman should be to men - completely supportive, undemanding, cares more for them than they do for themselves.

The horrible scene in the last episode where Ritchie's mum rips into her for having no life of her own - it was horrible but I couldn't help but think she had s point and was hoping that some "real" Jill might emerge as a result of this challenge - but no, she just continued to live her life for Ritchie and the other men in the show, even finding strangers to devote her compassion to.

Anyone else just find it really disappointing? I mean the story (clearly) is about gay men and what they went through during the height of the aids crisis. And that is an important story told with beauty and sensitivity. But why include a female character in that, ostensibly as a lead character, just to utterly marginalise and charicature her?

YABU: Jill's a great character/she's not what matters in this show

YANBU: She should have been done right or not at all.

As great as Jill was, it wasn't her story being told and there was no need to develop her character more.

I would love a spin off series...set before any of the characters died/became ill...that developed them all a bit more, following all their exploits and fun throughout the 80s.

When I watched the show, I thought the same thing about wanting to know more about her as an individual but on reflection, I quite like her character. There's nothing wrong with being the motherly/caring type.

@NeverTrustaRabbit
But thats again my point, the show was about gay men and aids. Yet all the work was done by a woman who had no story or real personality outside being a support to gaymen.

It might have been better to include more of the men doing the work. But all the progression in the story was as a result of something Jill did, all the fight was from Jill. If you want Jill to be a secondary character thats fine, but make her more of a secondary character.

I think to me it says quite a lot about RTD viewed the Jills.

@Floisme

RTD is a top writer and I think he's perfectly capable of breathing life into all his characters, even when they're not the main focus of the story. So I'm going to assume he either chose not to flesh out Jill or he forgot to. I'm generally a fan of his but I don't think either scenario reflects too well on him.

I suppose it might also be that he really didn't want to offend his friend, so over-compensated by not including any tiny hint of negativity/complexity?

I loved the series but did find Jill’s character a bit frustrating. She felt maybe symbolic rather than real.

She was the perfect “mum”, wasn’t she - endlessly supportive, accepting, cooking, cleaning, nursing, with joy in her heart and smile on her face. Nothing messy or conflicted about her.

@JohnMiddleNameRedactedSwanson

To me, it isn't Jill's story.

I agree, which is why I have found it strange that RTD has referred to the series as a 'love letter to the Jills'. I don't think that's what it is at all - it's a love letter to the people who were lost.

I wasn't sure whether Colin was raped by his landlady's son or whether it was consensual - anyone?

It was absolutely consensual - no ambiguity at all. The son was obviously closeted and verbally abusive to Colin as a result of his sense of shame but it was made really clear that Colin was having a lot of fun.

Well it wasn't obvious or unambiguous or really clear to me. I watched it twice and still wasn't sure whether Colin was entirely enjoying the experience or not.

But thanks for implying I'm an idiot.

I implied nothing of the sort.

YANBU - she’s just a default support human for the boys. It was a brilliant series, but her being 1 dimensional was a real disappointment.

I did think it was obvious Colins situation was consensual. He specifically asked when they could be alone regularly and he ogled the guy getting changed - I'd guess that was meant to be the clue the guy got to enter his room in the first place. Yes, the guy was cross and closeted but it didn't throw up any consent questions for me.

This was powerful stuff and will rakein the awards, I bet channel 4 wished they'd gone with 8 episodes now.

The bit that frustrated me was Jill going all the way to the IoW and then just sitting in the b&b. It didn't feel right, she should have been banging on the door.

That has really pissed me off.

Jill in the b&b frustrated me too but I don't think she thought Richie was actually going to die then. She kept mentioning him getting better the year before, and it seemed like she clung to that. She was genuinely shocked when his mum told her he'd passed.

His mum not allowing him to see Jill when he specifically asked was so so wrong and I'm so sad so many died without their 'family' around them because their biological family were so ashamed of them.

Jill in the B&B was frustrating but totally plausible. Everyone likes to think they'd be at the door banging it down but in real life I think most people would do what she did and politely wait for the call. The only character who had fully grasped that Richie was dying was his agent.

Totally off topic, but wasn't the agent's coat fabulous? I loved those shoulders.

I think I agree Jill in the B&B was plausible. Actually what didn't quite add up for me was Ash not going there at all - I know he had his job and couldn't stay, but I found it really odd he wouldn't have gone over for a weekend. They had 700 pounds!

I agree OP. I like RTD but I felt very disappointed with the character of Jill. As PPs have said, she was a device more than a character. I completely get this was a story about gay men but to have a character who plays such a big part and yet who is so under developed seems like a mistake. She was the adult worrying, caring, researching and completely devoting her life to them and had nothing else. That isn't believable. She was really one dimensional.

There's nothing wrong with being the motherly/caring type.
No there isn't, but motherly doesn't mean saintly. Motherly/caring people still get pissed off and lose their tempers sometimes - and then feel bad. They have other pulls on their time and they're conflicted. I was hoping to see something like that in Jill at some point (I've not got to the end yet) but it sounds like I won't.

I suppose it might also be that he really didn't want to offend his friend, so over-compensated by not including any tiny hint of negativity/complexity?
Yeah you're right - that's another explanation. But I still think it's a basic writing challenge. I imagine a lot of RTD's characters are inspired by real people so he must know how to do it. I just think he's normally a better writer of character than this and I'm disappointed.

Oh, absolutely, @Floisme - I think it wasn't great writing. Just I suspect that feeds into it.

She at least had a right to be upset/angry/stressed that she was either left responsible for the entire mortgage or worse that she lost the house because the mortgage was agreed based on a lie. Instead she just carried on, like a saint (as far as it was shown).

Yes you may well be right.

Sorry cross post - that was a reply to Sarah

She really was their emotional support human. I know that richie's mum was a total bitch but she was right about that part.

@Draineddraineddrained

she showed the humanity of the world, she wasn't just a weak female standing by. She did research, she worked on helplines, organised protests and marches. The scene were she sits with the dying man who has no one was utterly heartbreaking.

I know, and I actually feel a bit bad that that dedication and intelligence isn't enough to make her feel "really real" to me now I think about it. I mean it's important work for an important cause. I didn't feel like that about the lawyer who was in it for about 5 minutes (never got to know anything about her personal life or other motives and passions either!).

Possibly my issue is her "niceness" - she has no "side" to her at all, just sweetness, which to be fair is the same Colin - and it doesn't bother me with him!!

The more I think about it the more I think I may just have a problem with overly "nice" female characters as I sort of instinctive recoil - when actually if women are going to be able to be anything that comes naturally to them, some of them are just going to be bloody lovely and that doesn't make them "boring" or fake.

Possibly my own issues at play here!!!

I read an interview with one of the original AIDS Angels from the USA. It was really clear that she had compulsive caregiving syndrome due to childhood abandonment and caring for these men met her emotional needs. Not that she was doing it for the wrong reasons - she sounded amazing and extremely kind but MANY women develop this kind of strategy to cope with trauma and it should be examined more than it is, rather than accepted as 'natural' behaviour for women.

As an aside, the real Jill, Jill Nalder, played Jill's mum!

What a lot of us fail to recognise is that misogyny is just as deep rooted in the gay scene as any where else.

@PleaseReferToMeAsBritneySpears

As an aside, the real Jill, Jill Nalder, played Jill's mum!

That's been mentioned roughly every fourth post on this thread. We know!