To feel like the character of Jill in It's A Sin was really underdeveloped? ***Spoiler alert - added by MNHQ***

[Draineddraineddrained]

Just binged this show with DP over last couple of evenings and LOVED it (heartbreaking though it was) - but this just got to me...

I mean I don't find it unrealistic that a (presumably?) straight girl would be best friends with a group of gay men and become a huge advocate for them and an AIDS activist - my mum did similar back in the 80s, and I wish like anything she was still alive because she would have thought this show was amazing.

But she was also a full human being with her own life, relationships (mostly dire), failings and priorities - whereas Jill just seems like a sort of motherly cipher, there to hold everyone else together without any normal human feelings beyond extreme empathy and compassion. She feels like a fantasy of what a woman should be to men - completely supportive, undemanding, cares more for them than they do for themselves.

The horrible scene in the last episode where Ritchie's mum rips into her for having no life of her own - it was horrible but I couldn't help but think she had s point and was hoping that some "real" Jill might emerge as a result of this challenge - but no, she just continued to live her life for Ritchie and the other men in the show, even finding strangers to devote her compassion to.

Anyone else just find it really disappointing? I mean the story (clearly) is about gay men and what they went through during the height of the aids crisis. And that is an important story told with beauty and sensitivity. But why include a female character in that, ostensibly as a lead character, just to utterly marginalise and charicature her?

YABU: Jill's a great character/she's not what matters in this show

YANBU: She should have been done right or not at all.

I didn't feel sorry for Richie's Mum at all because I think she was still ashamed of him. She never accepted him for who he was

This has been discussed extensively on another thread but Ritchie's mum came from an entirely different generation. If she was in her 40's during the 80's, that means that she was probably born in the 1940's. It's a bit harsh to judge her by the standards of today. I'm not saying her actions were in any way right, but the point is that being 'out' and gay wasn't really a thing, even in the 80's. I found the scene where the other mum in the hospital has a go at her for not realising Ritchie was gay absolutely bizarre.

And it's always the women's fault. Ritchie's dad was homophobic and racist to boot, yet it was Val that Jill laid into on the pier. Her son had just died of this terrible disease and apparently that's all down to his mum! I can see the point that RTD was trying to make, but it was jarring. Let's not forget that Ritchie had been actively avoiding his family (understandably, maybe) to the point where his parents had to ambush him in the hospital and had even used Jill as a decoy girlfriend.

I think most of the characterisation of the women was problematic in this. Even the 'nice' ones.

I have to say, my worry was the end would be Jill left with no-one as they all died. I felt sad she didn't seem to have her own life but I guess the show was ultimately about how HIV/Aids affected people in the 80's. The men's relationships sexual and emotional came in to that story but a straight women's doesn't. Shame though as she was a great character and brilliantly portrayed.

@CaptainMyCaptain - but no one is asking you to say the same thing over and over? Why would you? It's an opinion you have about a TV show. If you're not enjoying discussing it why on earth would you not just stop?

I'm on the fence.
I don't think Jill's story was that important to it, but it would have been perfect for there to be another episode that showed Jill having a bit more life for herself maybe, and to see how the others moved on and the progression of treatment
Like a 90s then 00s sort of thing.
I want to know about the real life Jill.

I do however want to say that its a sin is an absolutely beautiful masterpiece. I felt like it showed peoples human conditions without blame.
I bloody loved Colin and his mum.

And I also have a son and can't imagine thinking that way either but society was different than , thankfully I hope most people are more enlightened these days.

@HariboBrenshnio

I get what you're saying but the tragedy is her son couldn't tell her who he really was because of the environment at home. She never made her own feelings clear about him, when his Dad did time and time again He was ashamed he was gay and then ashamed he had aids. She never put him first, just her own thoughts and feelings and wants for him. She let him down and I just can't relate to it at all. I totally understood Jill when she basically said Richie's mum was the reason why all those boys died in shame. Maybe with more time she would have reacted better but I'm not sure - she was very selfish from the moment she found out. Him excluding her from his life was entirely her own doing.

I do understand this was of a different time and people had different views but I have a son and I just can't ever imagine reacting like this. Colins mum handled it so beautifully and she had allowed for him to be able to turn to her.

I do know where you're coming from. But then, I could actually see her point that Ritchie kept making her think he had a girlfriend. There's the scene where she asks about Jill and he says Jill's not his girlfriend 'but never say never!' And, of course, they bought a house together. I would imagine most parents even today would assume if their child took out a mortgage with someone and brought them home for visits, they were romantically involved.

I do think the complexities of it were very cleverly explored, even if I wanted the women to seem more realistic.

I admit, I can't personally get my mind around feeling the need to burn your child's baby photos - it's such a violent thing

My dad's best friend died of AIDS in 1987 - mum actually only just told me recently, they knew but his family begged them to tell everyone it was cancer (not actually a lie he did develop cancer as a result of AIDS). I just knew him until recently as dad's friend who died of cancer aged 28.

After we both watched this we had a chat and mum said George was part of a vibrant gay community and lost many friends to AIDS, and yes sadly many families didn't even go as far as holding funerals or telling relatives the man had died. If asked they apparently aid "oh he's working abroad". so many weren't there in their final months of illness. They totally and completely disowned them and many in the gay community relied on each other. We really can't imagine today the total stigma of being gay and having AIDS.

Mum said George's family were wonderful and he was brought home to be nursed by his family before he died. But as much as they weren't ashamed they couldn't bear the thought of him being hated and family members disowning them. Hence the lie.

I agree with the point someone made about Valerie taking the blame for everything while the dad seemed to
be completely exonerated!

@likeafishneedsabike

Interesting that you both found the mum more plausible than I did. The scene of Gloria/Gregory’s family holding a funeral pyre in their garden shocked me to the core. Maybe I’m having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that a mother’s love of her son could be so conditional.

Unfortunately far too many people discover that either their parents love is conditional or hasn’t been there at all. Not something that is really talker about often enough.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows, that's so terribly sad about your dad's friend.

I should clarify though - I'm absolutely not saying I don't believe people had these attitudes. I know they did. I'm just saying that, for me personally, that scene was the one that really hit me hard.

I think the scary thing re Ritchie's parents were that they WEREN'T terrible parents, and it was a safe and loving home. But it's not enough - you need to do more than check in on your children occasionally. It was a stark reminder that anyone can fall into that habit of just getting by and never going the extra mile for fear of being seen to be snooping, or because your own life gets in the way, or because everything seems fine on the surface so you just assume they're ok. In fact I'd say the vast majority of us are like Ritchie's parents by the way we regard he welfare of our adult children

@SarahAndQuack oh I totally agree. It was horrifying. I thought the actor who played the dad, who cried clearly in distress whilst still throwing things on the fire, did a cracking job.

YY, I think that's such a good point @JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows.

Oh, sorry, we cross-posted; I was replying to your point about how parents can become complacent that they're not 'terrible,' while still being far from ok.

I thought the level of the acting was really good throughout.

@allycat4

I agree with the point someone made about Valerie taking the blame for everything while the dad seemed to be completely exonerated!

Did anyone else find it interesting that they effectively swapped roles? The dad started of as seeming intolerant ( allusions to being a bit racist and homophobic) and when he found out Ritchie had AIDS he broke down and couldn't care less that he was gay and how he got it. And then the previously caring, slightly dizzy mumsy mum turned completely intolerant?

I agree OP, the women all seemed so one dimensional, either perfect saints or horrible bitches.

And Jill blaming the mother for everything her son did pissed me right off. And wtf does 'beautifully gay' even mean, that bit was weird, and I have a gay brother who is a lovely man, but even I wouldn't describe him as 'beautifully gay' .

I really wanted to love the show, but much of it just seemed so stereotyped to me. (I did adore Colin and his story)

@SarahAndQuack absolutely (re the acting), I fully expect BAFTAs all round. Especially for Keeley Hawes and Olly Alexander

And then the previously caring, slightly dizzy mumsy mum turned completely intolerant

But did she turn intolerant? I didn't see it like that. She was angry. Angry that this was happening and angry that she hadn't known about it. Her reaction seemed plausible to me. She was looking for someone to blame for what had happened. She was obviously pissed at her husband but she really took it out on his friends. She was probably also angry at Ritchie for keeping it from her but it was easier to blame his friends.

When she says that Jill has kept it from her, I don't think she really thought that. But Ritchie was dying, so easier for her to have a go at the people closest to him.

God yes that was sad when they were throwing things on the fire and still crying in distress very much a conflict of emotions ,the good thing about this show is it's for everyone talking ,it's the best drama series I have seen in a long time

Yes I agree @AndreaMarteau it's easier for people to take things out on others and blame people rather than look at their own faults .

@AndreaMarteau I suppose when I say intolerant I meant of other who didn't hold her views about Ritchie. And she was right, Jill's support held back Ritchie's parents ability to give their support I completely understand her anger

Me too but then Ritchie also didn't want his parents support and I understand that it was a very different time ,as a parent now o just want my boys to be happy and whoever they fall in love with as long as they are happy I'm happy but society was very different back then

I thought the portrayal of Jill was interesting for what it said about RTD. He said that it was an homage to all the Jills, but he wasn’t really interested in her- just in what she gave to men like him. Interested in her only from the perspective of how she related to him, in the way a child loves its mother. It’s absolutely classic misogyny, and he’s so self-centred he can’t see it. We all know there are millions of men like that. We’ve all known them. We’ve all known, or been, the woman who gives up her life for them. And many of us have observed enough that it should be no surprise that a woke champion man is just as much like this as the old-fashioned kind of chauvinist.

@x2boys

Me too but then Ritchie also didn't want his parents support and I understand that it was a very different time ,as a parent now o just want my boys to be happy and whoever they fall in love with as long as they are happy I'm happy but society was very different back then

Oh, I think he did want his parents' support! You could see it in the way he kept apologising to them at the end. And the way he invited them to his one successful show. I think what was so tragic was that he kept thinking one day, he'd be a successful established actor and he could say 'look, mum and dad, I've made it'. And then maybe he'd have been able to come out. But he never got there.

Yes very true @SarahAndQuack I was just thinking in terms of him keeping his parents in the dark about his impending illness whatever way you look at it ,it was so bloody sad all these boys dying 😢